Waterman Still All Made In France?

[max dog]

A co-worker ordered a new Waterman Expert on Amazon. Pen arrived today, but with a sticker indicating it is made in India..

Has Waterman outsourced production on some of their models? I'm suspecting it may be a fake.

[sciumbasci]

Maybe it was just the pen box?

[max dog]

There is a big sticker on the box the pen came in and says:

 

"Manufactured by: Luxor Writing Instruments Pvt. Ltd, Sidicul, Ranipur, Hartdwar, Uttrarakhand...

Waterman is a registered trademark of Europe Brands SARL, or the affiliates and is used in India/Nepal by Luxor Writing Instruments Ltd., by their permission. "

"Month and Year of manufacture: 03/2017"

 

The pen was bought on Amazon Canada from I guess an Indian seller.

 

So in India, Waterman pens are made by Luxor Writing Instruments Ltd in India?

Does this sound legit?

Edited January 10, 2018 by max dog

[tvradio]

This 2013 thread says that some Waterman pens are made in India under license for intended sale only in the Indian home market. Yet, as we know, these geographic restrictions tend to be ignored.

[max dog]

  On 1/11/2018 at 1:45 AM, tvradio said:

This 2013 thread says that some Waterman pens are made in India under license for intended sale only in the Indian home market. Yet, as we know, these geographic restrictions tend to be ignored.

Thanks for the info. My co worker should be relieved to know it's not a fake.

[Left FPN]

Hold your horses, we need pictures of this 'Expert' before commenting.

 

In the mean time I will email my contact in customer service.

[max dog]

Will do tomorrow.

[sciumbasci]

I'm saddened to hear this. Despite India producing some excellent pens, I heard bad things about Luxor's licensed products.

[Left FPN]

Even without an answer yet from Waterman I have my doubts they manufacture Waterman pens, even under license.

 

http://www.luxor.in/pages/About%20Us

 

While they clearly state they manufacture their own label pens they also clearly state they INTRODUCED Waterman into India market. In other words they either import complete pens or parts thereof (for assembly into complete pens) direct from Waterman.

 

Ahhhhh Hhaaaaa, from their Expert Product description,

 

What gives Waterman that universal appeal and “je ne sais quoi” it enjoys today? Since 1883, the sensuality and distinctiveness of WATERMAN have assured its place at the heart of Parisian elegance and luxury. The brand’s remarkable history is a relentless quest to marry innovation, design and excellence and to be a leading inspiration that continues to drive the creation of some of the most stylish and sophisticated writing instruments in the world today. In its Center of Excellence in Nantes, in France, over 500 specialists work with state of the art equipment and techniques to transform precious materials and innovative designs into striking jewels Expert New Generation Black Brilliant Lacquer finish offers timeless elegance PRODUCT FEATURES: Designed and manufactured in France, Bold cigar shape design. Deep brilliant black lacquer or modern matte black lacquer. Generous and sophisticated stainless steel nib with delicately engraved logo(Fountain pen only). Wide, elegant, modern and engraved central ring. Chic and contemporary nickel palladium plated trims. Iconic double branched clip. Presented in the newly designed WATERMAN gift boxFountain pen: perfect for those who love the sensual experience of writing and see their writing as a truly personal expression.

 

I rests me case m'lud.

[Bluey]

  Quote

Designed and manufactured in France

 

Does that also mean assembled? The parts could all be made in France and then shipped off to India to be assembled. Hard to think that it makes economic sense, but if they are merely assembled there that may give them legal right to say "made in India".

Edited January 11, 2018 by Bluey

[praxim]

  On 1/11/2018 at 10:05 AM, Bluey said:

Does that also mean assembled? The parts could all be made in France and then shipped off to India to be assembled. Hard to think that it makes economic sense.

It could do. I am thinking that shipping packages of parts which are then assembled and placed in local boxes may be cheaper than shipping whole boxes of air with pen. Onoto did this in the 40s and 50s to sell pens in Australia based on local assembly.

 

adding: the machined parts are sent for assembly by cheaper labour. Spares were probably being sent out already anyway.

 

They may even be fully assembled pens which are merely packaged locally.

Edited January 11, 2018 by praxim

[RMN]

I have read before that Waterman has pens produced for the Indian market in India, and some models go there under different names.

 

I have read the same about Parker pens.

 

 

And with the Amazon model of providing sellers with a shop front, where these sellers often are from someplace in Asia.

So, it does not sound weird to me that an Indian seller, or at least a seller with access to Indian resources would be selling those pens in "the Western World" (whatever that may be)

 

 

 

D.ick

[max dog]

Here is the label that was on the pen box. The coworker didn't bring his pen in today so cant post pictures of it. Would be good to know the pen was actually manufactured in the Waterman plant in France.

 

Edited January 11, 2018 by max dog

[tvradio]

Manufactured parts appear to be shipped to India for pen assembly/"manufacture". According to this thread there might be small differences between identically-named models, like the tipping.

[Left FPN]

I have had a reply from Waterman and YES the pens ARE manufactured in India under license but NOT TO BE SOLD outwith India.

 

BUT, the water is still muddy. LUXOR have not replied to the same question.

 

Until we see good quality, actual pen(s) pictures I remain sceptical.

 

I would love to see the Carene.

 

Strange that LUXOR's web lists the Edson as no longer available if they manufacture inhouse.

 

It just all smells a little fishy to me.

[sciumbasci]

Well, I wanted to take my chances and order one but... nah 62EUR is too much to gamble on. How's the quality of these Indian Watermans?

[max dog]

  On 1/12/2018 at 9:00 AM, Force said:

I have had a reply from Waterman and YES the pens ARE manufactured in India under license but NOT TO BE SOLD outwith India.

 

BUT, the water is still muddy. LUXOR have not replied to the same question.

 

Until we see good quality, actual pen(s) pictures I remain sceptical.

 

I would love to see the Carene.

 

Strange that LUXOR's web lists the Edson as no longer available if they manufacture inhouse.

 

It just all smells a little fishy to me.

Thanks for checking into this. I don't know why Waterman would complicate things and allow a 3rd party to manufacture pens for the Indian market only. Perhaps there is some heavy duty that would be slapped on Waterman if they tried to sell directly to the Indian market, and so allows Luxor do manufacture it in India for them. One of the appeals of Waterman was that it was made in France in house, and that's why I suggested to my co-worker to look at Waterman for the price range he was looking at.

 

  On 1/12/2018 at 9:49 AM, sciumbasci said:

Well, I wanted to take my chances and order one but... nah 62EUR is too much to gamble on. How's the quality of these Indian Watermans?

The Waterman Expert 3 looked and felt solid. Didn't really notice anything to suggest it might be fake or substandard. The only thing I have to compare by is the Waterman converter in my Charleston, and the converter the Expert 3 came with looked and felt of the same high quality. The nib writes a little dry for my taste and if it were my pen I would have it adjusted to make it wetter, but my co-worker seems to be happy with the way it writes.

 

Morrow to this story. If you buy Waterman online, make sure to confirm where the seller is located, ie ensure it is not coming from India if you want a French made Waterman.

Edited January 12, 2018 by max dog

[Left FPN]

I think it has something to do with import export of items that contain gold.

 

The thing is did his pen actually come from India. Now not wishing to be synical here but Amazon sometimes stock goods for companies and if this is the case that pen may well have not even been anywhere near the country....India sends labels to Waterman, Waterman stick label on box pens they have and send boxed pens to Amazon....might be wrong but it's an idea.

[Brandywine]

  On 1/12/2018 at 6:04 PM, Force said:

I think it has something to do with import export of items that contain gold.

 

The thing is did his pen actually come from India. Now not wishing to be synical here but Amazon sometimes stock goods for companies and if this is the case that pen may well have not even been anywhere near the country....India sends labels to Waterman, Waterman stick label on box pens they have and send boxed pens to Amazon....might be wrong but it's an idea.

 

Why should they do so?

The general feeling is that Watermen (sic! ) produced in France

are more desirable than those produced in India.

(No comment intended here on whether these feelings are justified)

It may make sense to falsely declare Indian pens as French, but not the other way round.

The above picture shows that the label claims "manufactured by Luxor" -

who would claim that if he could claim "made in France"?

 

I can't imagine that anyone would do so just to evade Indian taxes or import restrictions.

IMO that just would not be worth the effort!

It's much easier to have your goods manufactured under licence for little money in the country.

Edited January 12, 2018 by Brandywine

[Left FPN]

  On 1/12/2018 at 8:38 PM, Brandywine said:

 

Why should they do so?

The general feeling is that Watermen (sic! ) produced in France

are more desirable than those produced in India.

(No comment intended here on whether these feelings are justified)

It may make sense to falsely declare Indian pens as French, but not the other way round.

The above picture shows that the label claims "manufactured by Luxor" -

who would claim that if he could claim "made in France"?

 

I can't imagine that anyone would do so just to evade Indian taxes or import restrictions.

IMO that just would not be worth the effort!

It's much easier to have your goods manufactured under licence for little money in the country.

Stranger things happen.

 

We really need to see the end product to decide who has made them.

 

I have seen copies/replicas of British motorcyles and side lock guns manufactured in India and you can tell the difference.

 

Further delving into Amazon.in listing for a Hemisphere...one buyer feedback reads.

 

The pen is not up to the mark. What I have seen in the photo is entirely different from physical appearance. The writing is not at all good. The nib is very blunt. I can not recommend it. I returned it also. Very unhappy.

 

What I have noticed, not only on Amazon.in, is that many photographs of boxed Waterman pens are computer generated which makes the pen look...like a picture.

 

Another feedback ref a 'Carene' purchase,

 

Waterman pens were wonderful till they started assembling it all over the world. Finally they started outsourcing the brand name. Leak in Waterman, with the "France" engraved on it, would be unthinkable. They are solidly MADE IN FRANCE, or at least the parts (nib, feed, body and trims) were made in France. I have reservation about quality control of Luxor, particularly for pens in premium segment, e.g., Waterman. In 1990s, I bought the then top of the line Parker Fougere (MRP ~12000 INR in 1990), marketed, perhaps even made by Luxor. The non-metallic inside of the cap, that prevents the nib from drying, started disintegrating on its own, within the "warranty" period !! Luxor did not respond despite repeated attempts.

I never had such a bizarre experience with a pen. I am not new to fountain pens, having a moderately decent collection. Some of which are decades old. They function FLAWLESSLY and look GREAT.

 

On 18 June 2016, I was tempted to buy the Carene DLX, a wonderful looking pen. It was going on sale at an incredible price from Cloudtail/Amazon. But stopped after seeing that several buyer found the pen leaking within few weeks of the purchase. It seems that Luxor has not changed its business style ! Buyers of Waterman Carene in India should check if the pen has a SOLID 18K GOLD NIB, which a original Carene has. The cap and other trims are plated, always.