Buying A Vintage Pen - Restored Or Unrestored?

[bh_horology]

I apologize if this question has been asked before. I have been looking around for some vintage pens - like a Sheaffer Balance, Pelikan 400, Parker Duofold, etc. On ebay there seems to be quite a big difference between a fully restored pen and pens in "as is" condition.

For instance, this Sheaffer sold for $125 in fully restored condition:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-HUGE-1930s-SHEAFFER-LIFETIME-OVERSIZE-BALANCE-FOUNTAIN-PEN-SET-RESTORED/391939067724?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Whereas this similar pen didn't sell for even $20.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/sheaffer-fountain-pen/112673071503?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

My question to the forum members is: Wouldn't it be worthwhile to purchase "as-is" condition pens and then get them restored? Seems like you can get a resotration done in ~$40 (http://www.mainstreetpens.com/pricelist.htm)

 

Am I missing something?

[eachan]

They aren't all that similar. The restored pen is patterned, in excellent condition and well described, whereas the other one is black and it's hard to tell what condition it's in. Buying from eBay can be taking a chance. If you get a decent unrestored pen and send it to a repairer for restoration you might do well, but you have to be prepared to do your research about that pen model, ask questions and be sure that what you get is what you want.

[senzen]

You could probably save some money, but there's always the risk that cheap pen requires a lot more work so the restoration might be more expensive? It also depends on your patience, as in having a pen ready to write now or later. For instance a Waterman CF might have extensive corrosion problems, or not. Apart from unscrupulous vendors, there's also estate sellers who have no idea about the real state of the pen.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Most 400's are OK even if not 'restored'. I have some five or six from the '50-54 (including a 100n&Ibis) era and none needed anything at all. Three including two 140's and a 400NN from the '55-65 era.

It is possible the '50-54 ones would or could need a new gasket in that was the old fashioned Plastic Gasket 1.0. After '55 Plastic Gasket 2.0 came in.....the same plastic gasket we still use.

Mine are still fine.

 

It could be possible that the gasket is shot.............if so, order a steel bit of the 400's gasket width, and some Plastic Gasket 2.0 from Richard Binder..................look at the better Youtube vids of how to take your 400 apart.....something you don't want to do often. (Some 'noobies' are AR or think they are Twsbi's that can be taken apart and cleaned ....just in case there's a drop of ink behind the piston....no one can see... ) Outside the 800/1000 no piston pen is designed to be taken apart. That they can is possible.

 

For the price of a quite Saturday night out, a professional can do that repair. Don't have to buy the plastic gasket or the gasket cutter either. Figure that simple repair as part of the next 70 years and send it to a piston pen repair man.....

 

Buying in the Wild of Ebay, you need to know what is what as explained.

A beater should be cheaper, with some luck you can finger polish....just the finger not finger on the cloth, with Semi-Chrome a fair polish back on....making it look well maintained.....if AR can go for NOS looking.

Be aware....don't have any ink to test and that's the 10th pen he's sold.

 

You are going to have to re-sack any lever pen, same with rubber sack pens like Vac's or Snorkels and they are not simple to do like an Esterbrook or Wearever.

Don't ever use Supersaturated inks in a rubber sack pen of any kind.

Once the rubber sack was good for 30-40 years.....now it's said...ten years....ten days if a Supersaturated ink has been used......some reputable repair men say.

Old fashioned inks only in old fashioned rubber sack pens.

 

You can get a pen that works for a fair price from our remembers selling in our Sales Section. They have a good name to protect....in they want to keep BS'ing here on the com.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Bo Bo Olson

[inkstainedruth]

First off, you can't gauge eBay prices -- they're all over the map.

Secondly, you have to do your due diligence -- even if the seller says the pen is restored, you have to ask questions as to what precisely was done (people might consider that cleaning the pen barrel might be "restored" -- and to a collector that might be enough. But if you want the pen to USE, you should be asking for a writing sample image if there isn't one there.

Thirdly, if the pen ISN'T restored (or being sold in "as is" condition), you DO have to figure how much extra the repairs are going to be -- and that can vary greatly, depending on what work needs to be done. I had a friend who inherited what turned out to be a non-working Sheaffer Snorkel last year, and showed the pen to me. I told her "No, it's not working but I know a guy -- actually a couple of guys" and quoted her what I'd paid to have most of my Snorkels repaired. Only in her case it was more because the spring needed to be replaced on hers.... I had to apologize to her for underquoting, but she did reimburse me the $60 for what I had paid. So you have to figure a minimum $20-$60 US *additional* cost for an unrestored pen, depending on what repairs it's actually going to need (and whether you have the skill set to do it yourself). If it's just a re-sac job, it may cost you five to ten bucks for a sac and and replacement lever (plus extra for shellac and talc, and the time if it's a DIY job). If it's a major crack in the celluloid, that's going to be WAY more expensive (the price I got quoted a couple of years ago was $100 and a 6 month wait...).

OTOH, if it's something like a Parker 51 Aerometric, the odds are pretty good that all the pen will need is to be flushed out well and the pen will be good to go. YMMV.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[jar]

Always assume the pen is not restored unless it is being sold by one of the dozen or so known vintage pen restoration folk.

 

Don't believe what the seller says unless you personally know them.

 

And even then, figure on at least $25-50.00 additional restoration will be needed.

[Kelly G]

It goes without saying, but I'm going to say it any way, as with most things, it just depends. In the case of vintage fountain pens, fair value depends on a number of factors; brand, model, material, nib, filling system, scarcity, condition, condition, condition, and a few more things that get harder to quantify.

In the case of the two Sheaffer pens you ask about, they are quite different. One is oversized, one is not. One is of a scarcer material. One is restored by a know and respected dealer, one is unrestored. While the state of restoration plays a part in the difference in value, there is more to it. Think of it like buying vintage cars. A restored 1956 Ford Thunderbird VS an unrestored 1961 Dodge Lancer. The restoration is only a part of the value.

 

All that being said, if you know what you're doing, you can find some great pens for cheap prices on eBay that just need some TLC. But, there is some risk involved.

[georges zaslavsky]

I would rather buy a restored pen , so I am sure it works fine and like a new one.

[Runnin_Ute]

I have done both. Bought unrestored off ebay and did the DIY re-sac thing with several Esterbrook pens, one happened to be recently done and given what appeared to be a new nib when I took it apart to do it. Another (an SJ) didn't need to be resacced. I didn't know until I took it apart. One I paid about $40 shipped from a member here in restored. All the others? $10-20 generally.

The Parker 51 Special? Flush and fill.

Pelikan 140? I paid extra by buying from Rick Propas for a restored one. Well worth it in that case. Even though I paid more, I got one that is probably a nicer example.

 

So it all depends. I have no or limited knowledge of Sheaffer pens.

 

I have recently been trolling 51 aerometrics on ebay. Currently watching a few.

[Ron Z]

First, the two pens in your links are not even in the same league. Both may be Sheaffer, but the one that sold for $125 restored is a big pen, and in a much desired color. Restored at that price was a real deal.

 

Since I restore and sell pens my opinion obviously has some bias to it. But I collected and restored my own pens for a very long time before I started repairing them for other people. If you are mechanically inclined its one thing. But if you are all thumbs and things like this don't fit into your skill set, its something all together different.

 

Restored, if it really is restored, means open the box, fill the pen and write. "Really restored" means that it has been cleaned, a new sac installed, and any problems the pen has addressed, and the pen tested. Simply having a new sac installed is not restored. When i sell a pen it is properly restored, nib smoothed, the pen tested and includes a 10 day return option and a warranty. Very few come back.

 

If you buy an unrestored pen, you buy a pen, or what looks like a pen. It may nor may not write when you get it, and the cost to restore it will vary depending on model and filling system, and it may nor may not be worth repairing. I do see pens that are damaged beyond repair from time to time. You therefore have to factor in not only the cost of restoration but shipping in both directions and the time needed for the repair, and/or time in the pen mechanics queue.

[praxim]

If the question is "restored or unrestored" then the answer is "it depends". I have in my repair bucket at the moment a "fully restored" Onoto 3050 (1920s) where the section will not open (without work) and the plunger barely moves under force. Other 50s vintage pens sold as unrestored have been put straight to work with nary a problem. Price can be an indicator between similar pens (which the above are not, as experts have pointed out) but it accounts for a smaller than expected part of the variability.

 

I am afraid one has to spend time learning about pens, recognising things said and not said in ads depending on the particular pen, and basically being willing to spend some money unless you are lucky, and at times to get things wrong. On the other hand, restoration (if you can do it) is fun and satisfying, and a pen restored by a professional is usually a delight.

 

By the way, beware of the writing sample based on dipping the pen, rather than filling the pen.

[Glenn Atkins]

There are several people who do it right. Ron is one. tbickiii is one. I'll echo what the others have said - two totally different pens.

 

Glenn

[kestrel]

If you like to tinker with stuff then unrestored pens may be for you. I have been buying "as is" pens for a while simply for the fun/challenge of making them whole again. I occasionally get a clunker that can't be fixed to anything approaching original condition and function but those are rare.

 

If you don't like to tinker then what Ron, Praxim, and Glenn wrote is spot on. I know a couple of eBay sellers who boast of installing a new sac and consider the pen restored but they don't do anything else. I assume if I buy a pen from one of them that I will have to do a full dissassembly, redo the sac (WITH talc), clean junk from the barrel, reset the feed, adjust the nib, etc. Those pens were not ready to write when they arrived.

 

Enjoy the hunt.

[keto]

As I grow into a hobby, I like to learn how things work, how to clean and maintain them, best practices for all of that etc - but that knowledge might take years to acquire. I play guitar and bass, and I wouldn't turn a truss rod to adjust a neck for yearrrrrs, too many stories about stuff getting broken beyond repair by overtightening. But, at some point a few years ago, I got into doing all my own setups, and now have built - from scratch other than the neck, and of course with acquired hardware - multiple guitars and basses.

 

Pens - I'm a complete noob. So, I want cleaned and working vintage stuff. Ron just got a bit of my business today Maybe some day down the road I'll want to acquire the tools and knowledge to fix up those bargain finds....but not yet.

[Ron Z]

The fact that people like to repair their own pens, and will repair their own pens, is one of the reasons why I'm here and answer so many questions. I want them to succeed, knowing that its a heck of a lot more fun when they do! I started in the late 80s with a few articles from Pen World and a reproduction of a repair manual. Not a heck of a lot to go on. There's a lot of repair information available today, most of it good, some of it really bad. If I can steer them a way from the bad, all the better.

[OMASsimo]

Lots of good advice here. But there are two things to keep in mind. First, most sellers on ebay will not restore a pen to the standards of Ron and other experts here at the forum. Second, there is a difference between maintenance and restoration in my opinion and most people do maintenance while calling it restoration. The first priority of restoration is to preserve the historical substance to a maximum and functionality comes only second. Maintenance is the opposite. That's the reason why at least I find more frankenpens among the "restored" offerings than the "attic finds". It's also one of the reasons why I prefer to buy my pens "as is". Of course, I have to mention that I have the tools and the skills to do a lot of the restoration work myself and otherwise it might be not really economical. But in any case, most of the time you buy a pig in a poke on ebay anyway, regardless whether it's called "restored" or not. That's at least my experience and I bid accordingly.

[Sailor Kenshin]

If you like to tinker with stuff then unrestored pens may be for you. I have been buying "as is" pens for a while simply for the fun/challenge of making them whole again. I occasionally get a clunker that can't be fixed to anything approaching original condition and function but those are rare.

 

If you don't like to tinker then what Ron, Praxim, and Glenn wrote is spot on. I know a couple of eBay sellers who boast of installing a new sac and consider the pen restored but they don't do anything else. I assume if I buy a pen from one of them that I will have to do a full dissassembly, redo the sac (WITH talc), clean junk from the barrel, reset the feed, adjust the nib, etc. Those pens were not ready to write when they arrived.

 

Enjoy the hunt.

Exactly. We started 'restoring' pens and it's fun! I went from a state of absolute terror to something like 'bring 'em on' in a few months. So I'd prefer buying low/medium-level unrestored and at least getting them to write.

[corgicoupe]

I would rather buy a restored pen , so I am sure it works fine and like a new one.

I agree with Georges. I might gamble on a lever-fill Sheaffer or Esterbrook that is priced at $10-15, or a Parker or Sheaffer that I can handle (knowing I'm going to add another $40-50 for restoration). Otherwise I'll go with a known source and pay a bit more for the certainty it will work on receipt.

My $0.02

[Venemo]

As others have said, the answer to this question is "it depends". I would like to add one thought: when buying on ebay, read the seller's description and don't be afraid to ask the seller. Also whether or not they accept returns is also relevant.

• "as-is, no returns accepted" = it will probably not work, and they probably won't help you make it work, I don't ever buy these
• "as-is, returns accepted" = at least they take some responsibility, ask the seller if the pen works and what flaws it has, and make your decision accordingly
• "restored" = you have every right to complain if the pen is not in top condition or doesn't work, and they will fix it if that is the case

It also depends on the pen type. If a Parker 51 is sold "as-is" (returns accepted, of course) and the seller says it works, then it most probably will work. Simply, the mechanism is so robust that it rarely goes wrong. Esterbrook: very easy to re-sac, worst case you need a replacement J-Bar but that's about it. However I would NOT buy a non-restored Snorkel or a similarly complicated mechanism. There is just too many small details that can go wrong with those.

 

Of course, restoring your own pen can be a cool project if you are interested in it, and are willing to pay for parts and tools, and willing to take the risk of possibly breaking it. If you stick to simple and very cheap pens, you have little to lose on the long run.

[carlos.q]

This thread has made me realize that I should buy all my vintage pens restored... so that I can use them. All the pens that I have bought unrestored are waiting in a box, very patiently, for that moment where I have time to sit down and fix them.