Kung Te Cheng...or Equivalents

[antichresis]

I was the one who asked about pairing KTC with an Eco in another thread. I still haven't done it, though I'm glad it is working out for you, TruthPil. Some of my thoughts: I've tried it with an FPR Jaipur as well as a Noodler's Charlie—both with ebonite feeds. Both are reasonably wet (the Charlie, more so) and neither works with KTC over an appreciable amount of time.

 

You can get a few days of writing, sure, but the feed will clog sooner than later (although it's really just a quick rinse under the tap to get it going again). Cleaning is a different matter, where my KTC (who really knows with Noodler's) does not really stain the barrel as it coats the inside of the barrel. A q-tip wipes it clean off. As to the piston mechanism, I did not notice any added friction.

 

A note on the Dollar 717: I bought a box of these and sold what I didn't need so from the collective user experience of the box, you should know that the pen sometimes burps excessively when ink is low, and the feed isn't snug enough (I don't think we have a term for this) to keep ink in. Even when reasonably full and with normal use, you will notice ink on the cap—no jogging pre-required. The Qalam version has a noticeable gap between the tines, so much so that it either railroads or does not write at all with drier inks. I have had to introduce it with a pair of "long nose" pliers to fix the issue.

 

I don't find either to be noticeably wet and I can use both on the cheap paper as neatly as I can manage with other pens. The 717i is comparable in width to a Safari Medium or a Parker 45 Medium. The 717q is comparable in width to my Pilot CM/Plumix M nibs.

[ENewton]

A note on the Dollar 717: I bought a box of these and sold what I didn't need so from the collective user experience of the box, you should know that the pen sometimes burps excessively when ink is low, and the feed isn't snug enough

 

To prevent burping, I adjust the piston to reduce the size of the ink chamber as the amount of ink decreases.

 

I have never noticed a problem with the feed not being snug enough.

[truthpil]

I was just watching a video on the Boston Safety Pen that Noodler's has released in limited numbers. They expect to have it as a regular offering, but are having trouble producing the quantity to meet the demand, it seems. At any rate, it occurred to me that this might be the perfect pen for this ink. In theory, when the nib is retracted, it's surrounded by the ink. So the only time it isn't swimming in ink (assuming you keep it pretty full, I suppose) is when it's writing. Wouldn't this be the perfect solution for a thick, cloggy ink like this one?

If KTC worked in this new safety pen, do you think it would work in a vintage safety pen or is that crazy talk?

 

Now I'm thinking about entering the world of safety pens haha.

[elippman]

I had never even heard of safety pens before hearing of the Noodler prototype. My sense is that safety pens seem to be made for this type of process. I could be wrong, but making a pen that soaks the nib and feed in ink before use suggests to me that the goal is to write with inks that would normally not be safe for fountain pens. I know Noodler’s has a line of inks now that seem designed to go with that design, but have warnings against use in regular fountain pens. Personally, I’m always afraid of doing much experimenting with vintage pens, but it seems a logical fit to me.

[Tweel]

Two of Waterman's safety pens, the Artist Pen and the Music Pen, were advertised as being "scientifically designed to permit writing with India Ink, without clogging."

[IndigoBOB]

Well I finally tried out my FPR Ebonite Himalaya with a TWSBI Eco/Mini EF nib and it worked just right. Great rich flow of Kung Te-Cheng without being too wet and using up exorbitant amounts of ink like the broader TWSBI nibs.

 

I was having too wet a flow of KTC with FPR Medium nibs and I could never get the Fine nibs to work well for me. They'd either be to feedbacky, or squeaky, and then if I tried eve one or two figure eights on 12000 micromesh they lost a bit of that pleasant feedback I like.

Plus KTC isn't the most lubricated ink so I feel the feedback more than with something like Air Corps Blue Black or Heart of Darkness.

 

Mind you I do use 52 gsm Tomoe River Paper when writing with KTC so that has a bearing on the feel of the nib.

 

But am happy to finally have the success of this pen-ink combo as well as simply a lovely Pen-Nib combo I'm happy to have in my collection.

 

Ironically enough, I still really like the KTC in my Noodler's Charlie and even prefer it right now.

 

I tried out the Noodler's Ebonite Konrad, but I received two with cracked outer shell of the piston component and another one with an unfinished section that felt abrasive. I ended up keeping one of the cracked Ebonite Konrads because it still functioned (and I got a refund anyways) and it works well with KTC, but I'm honestly not the biggest fan of the Noodler's nibs nor the ergonomics of the Ebonite Konrad and my penmanship suffered a little bit.

[truthpil]

Well I finally tried out my FPR Ebonite Himalaya with a TWSBI Eco/Mini EF nib and it worked just right. Great rich flow of Kung Te-Cheng without being too wet and using up exorbitant amounts of ink like the broader TWSBI nibs.

 

I was having too wet a flow of KTC with FPR Medium nibs and I could never get the Fine nibs to work well for me. They'd either be to feedbacky, or squeaky, and then if I tried eve one or two figure eights on 12000 micromesh they lost a bit of that pleasant feedback I like.

Plus KTC isn't the most lubricated ink so I feel the feedback more than with something like Air Corps Blue Black or Heart of Darkness.

 

 

I'm glad you found the right combo! Using an FPR medium nib in my TWSBI Eco worked for KTC once the feed was totally saturated, but I can attest to the same issue you had of writing too wet. I think the saturation but it would feather too much on any paper because the nib was just too wet. I can't justify buying another Eco for the nib, but perhaps a standard JoWo #5 EF nib from fpnibs.com or meisternibs would do the trick in a Himalaya.

 

I tried out the Noodler's Ebonite Konrad, but I received two with cracked outer shell of the piston component and another one with an unfinished section that felt abrasive. I ended up keeping one of the cracked Ebonite Konrads because it still functioned (and I got a refund anyways) and it works well with KTC, but I'm honestly not the biggest fan of the Noodler's nibs nor the ergonomics of the Ebonite Konrad and my penmanship suffered a little bit.

 

Although not cracked upon arrival like yours, my red demonstrator Konrad has been banished to the drawer of shame and hasn't seen the light of day in years. I could rarely get the nib adjusted properly to flow well (tried the heat seating and all that a few times) and then the ink dries out in to pen too quickly. I'm hoping the Boston Safety Pen will save the day for using troublesome dry-out prone inks like KTC!

 

My Dollar 717q pens are still in transit, but should be here in a few days to test with KTC.

[IndigoBOB]

 

I'm glad you found the right combo! Using an FPR medium nib in my TWSBI Eco worked for KTC once the feed was totally saturated, but I can attest to the same issue you had of writing too wet. I think the saturation but it would feather too much on any paper because the nib was just too wet. I can't justify buying another Eco for the nib, but perhaps a standard JoWo #5 EF nib from fpnibs.com or meisternibs would do the trick in a Himalaya.

 

 

Although not cracked upon arrival like yours, my red demonstrator Konrad has been banished to the drawer of shame and hasn't seen the light of day in years. I could rarely get the nib adjusted properly to flow well (tried the heat seating and all that a few times) and then the ink dries out in to pen too quickly. I'm hoping the Boston Safety Pen will save the day for using troublesome dry-out prone inks like KTC!

 

My Dollar 717q pens are still in transit, but should be here in a few days to test with KTC.

 

 

My thoughts exactly. As I'm sure you'll see on JamerelBe's Himalaya thread I already went that course of purchasing a standard #5 Jowo and Arrow #5 from FPnibs. The price was better than I expected. The Arrow nib intrigued me.

 

It's not worth buying a whole Eco pen for the nib. For me the Eco is a functionally reliable pen that is not comfortable enough for me to be motivated to take it out of it's case stored away unfortunately, and likely waiting to be gifted away to some FP newbie.

 

Yes, even when my Ebonite Konrad functioned properly, the nibs were the next problem... and then since Jowo #6 nibs couldn't be swapped, I was cornered into relegating the pen to my own cupholder of shame. That was a disappointing pen...

 

...but that's where the Boston Safety Pen intrigues, since I do believe it can be replaced with other nibs, but I'd have to do my research on it. I'm waiting for some more FPN reviews to come out.

 

I'm always curious about any successes you may have with KTC.

[eharriett]

 

...but that's where the Boston Safety Pen intrigues, since I do believe it can be replaced with other nibs, but I'd have to do my research on it. I'm waiting for some more FPN reviews to come out.

 

What are you interested in knowing about the Boston Safety? I've been using one nightly since I got it a month ago. Be happy to answer any questions. As far as inks, here's my impressions:

 

The 1774 ink works fine, but had some starting issues even though the ink was made for that pen.

Absolutely no issues when using any regular pen ink. I typically had Platinum Carbon Black in it, but also tried others. All good.

I also tried a couple fills of dip pen ink by J. Herbin called Lawyers Ink. Did not work well, even though a safety pen is supposed to do just fine with dip pen ink. This ink caused serious flow issues. I had to give up.

 

There's exactly as much flex on it as there is on a standard flex creaper pen. It is a lot of fun to write with.

 

Do NOT let anyone else touch it without telling them not to open it.

 

Let me know what else.

[truthpil]

What are you interested in knowing about the Boston Safety? I've been using one nightly since I got it a month ago. Be happy to answer any questions. As far as inks, here's my impressions:

 

The 1774 ink works fine, but had some starting issues even though the ink was made for that pen.

Absolutely no issues when using any regular pen ink. I typically had Platinum Carbon Black in it, but also tried others. All good.

I also tried a couple fills of dip pen ink by J. Herbin called Lawyers Ink. Did not work well, even though a safety pen is supposed to do just fine with dip pen ink. This ink caused serious flow issues. I had to give up.

 

There's exactly as much flex on it as there is on a standard flex creaper pen. It is a lot of fun to write with.

 

Do NOT let anyone else touch it without telling them not to open it.

 

Let me know what else.

I soooooo wish I could get my hands on one of these!

In this thread I guess everyone wants to know if it will work perfectly with Kung Te-Cheng. Whaleman's Sepia is another troublesome ink that may be perfect for this pen.

[eharriett]

I soooooo wish I could get my hands on one of these!

In this thread I guess everyone wants to know if it will work perfectly with Kung Te-Cheng. Whaleman's Sepia is another troublesome ink that may be perfect for this pen.

I've heard conflicting reports about them being available in limited numbers. Then not again. I think they're slowly being released and bought just as quickly. Noodlers has another hit on their hands.

 

As far as Whaleman's Sepia: it is the only ink I ever had that killed a pen. Fortunately, it was their own Charlie Pen Gave up that bottle. Even the infamous BSB, like Kung Te Cheng, I use successfully, and happily with no problems. But that Whaleman's put the scare in me.

[truthpil]

I've heard conflicting reports about them being available in limited numbers. Then not again. I think they're slowly being released and bought just as quickly. Noodlers has another hit on their hands.

 

As far as Whaleman's Sepia: it is the only ink I ever had that killed a pen. Fortunately, it was their own Charlie Pen Gave up that bottle. Even the infamous BSB, like Kung Te Cheng, I use successfully, and happily with no problems. But that Whaleman's put the scare in me.

 

Yeah, I had a 5ml sample and it dried out on the nib so quickly that it was extremely frustrating. Just a tad more insane than KTC. I can forgive KTC though because the color is amazing.

 

I really hope these safety pens can be the solution for the most troublesome Noodler's inks that either clog normal pens or are just too frustrating to use.

[IndigoBOB]

What are you interested in knowing about the Boston Safety? I've been using one nightly since I got it a month ago. Be happy to answer any questions. As far as inks, here's my impressions:

 

The 1774 ink works fine, but had some starting issues even though the ink was made for that pen.

Absolutely no issues when using any regular pen ink. I typically had Platinum Carbon Black in it, but also tried others. All good.

I also tried a couple fills of dip pen ink by J. Herbin called Lawyers Ink. Did not work well, even though a safety pen is supposed to do just fine with dip pen ink. This ink caused serious flow issues. I had to give up.

 

There's exactly as much flex on it as there is on a standard flex creaper pen. It is a lot of fun to write with.

 

Do NOT let anyone else touch it without telling them not to open it.

 

*****Well I wanted to see if anyone was having any qc issues and if they were common. The second thing I wanted to know is what if any nibs could be swapped into it.*****

 

Let me know what else.

I soooooo wish I could get my hands on one of these!

In this thread I guess everyone wants to know if it will work perfectly with Kung Te-Cheng. Whaleman's Sepia is another troublesome ink that may be perfect for this pen.

***yah, after I saw vittaR ‘s review on YouTube about it I was scared away lol

[wallylynn]

What are you interested in knowing about the Boston Safety.

Does the ink dry up? My creaper, konrad, and ahab, I can almost watch the ink level drop and concentrate darker as it dries through the body.

[eharriett]

Does the ink dry up? My creaper, konrad, and ahab, I can almost watch the ink level drop and concentrate darker as it dries through the body.

No, it does not. It is airtight, as far as I can tell. I can’t get an accurate measure without doing a daily removal of ink, since you can’t see the level very well, but there’s been no evaporation that I have seen. I second your concerns. I have a similar issue with my creaper (not the Ahab, though), but so far this pen seems to be behaving mechanically like traditional safeties of the past, meaning there’s no leaks and no evaporation.

[elippman]

Sounds like we’re back to the Boston Safety Pen as the late great hope for this ink. I have had some success writing with the Sheaffer school pen, although mine has a medium nib. It seems like what I’m hearing is that, in order to get the best behavior and color out of this ink, you need a super-wet feed with an F/EF nib that won’t clog easily. What a combination! The difficulty with all of my pens is getting the best color out of it. My Pilot Met w/ Plumix nib is just too dry, and gives off that dull purple color. The Sheaffer medium can sometimes concentrate enough ink to get into the indigo range, but the best has been the Muft when it comes to color...but not performance. So what a balancing act! After hearing about the Eco nib, I considered putting it in my eco, but that pen seems to write dry with its regular feed, so even though I have a fine nib in it, I think it would have clogging/starting problems. Btw, I also have KTC in a Kaweco Sport with an EF nib. It does pretty well, but hard starts nearly every time. Waiting for the safety pens....

[eharriett]

I can’t say I’ve been able to successfully replicate the clogging issue, fortunately. I’ve got mine in a school pen and I’ve had zero issues. That being said, I think you may be right that the safety should be good. The 1774 ink was an occasional hard starter, but that is supposed to be worse than KTC. And if I could go through a couple fills of it with only minor starting issues, then KTC should be as good or better.

[IndigoBOB]

Sounds like we’re back to the Boston Safety Pen as the late great hope for this ink. I have had some success writing with the Sheaffer school pen, although mine has a medium nib. It seems like what I’m hearing is that, in order to get the best behavior and color out of this ink, you need a super-wet feed with an F/EF nib that won’t clog easily. What a combination! The difficulty with all of my pens is getting the best color out of it. My Pilot Met w/ Plumix nib is just too dry, and gives off that dull purple color. The Sheaffer medium can sometimes concentrate enough ink to get into the indigo range, but the best has been the Muft when it comes to color...but not performance. So what a balancing act! After hearing about the Eco nib, I considered putting it in my eco, but that pen seems to write dry with its regular feed, so even though I have a fine nib in it, I think it would have clogging/starting problems. Btw, I also have KTC in a Kaweco Sport with an EF nib. It does pretty well, but hard starts nearly every time. Waiting for the safety pens....

 

 

That's a really good summary and well put. It is a balancing act. I found my Safari has no problems but it lays down that anemic dull purple you're talking about. It's not like Air-Corps Blue Black or Heart of Darkness which are dark no matter what.

 

I was talking with Jamerelbe about the FPR Himalaya and he was saying he had even better luck fitting a Jowo #5 Standard and was also happy about using the Jowo #5 Arrow with that pen (FPnibs.coM). I ordered EF's of those versions to try out for myself, but they may take a while : (

As you say, it is basically optimizing the wet delivery system of it's ebonite feed. The Himalaya is a great pen, and solid for the price, but it comes with those cheap Indian nibs that are hit or miss and likely to require tinkering if you want to go with anything finer than a Medium*** I just wanted to clear this up since this information is a recent development in the tinkering of this pen model for the sake of finding something to fit the bill for KTC and my standards, which are picky.

 

I don't think it will be up to your standards in the Eco. That feed is too dry unless you prime it every time with the piston.

 

Safety Pens are on my list now, too, but hesitantly. I was doing some research and so far the nib can be swapped with a Kaweco, but there's some indecisiveness as to whether or not a jowo #5 can swap in. I'm not keen to get involved in tinkering pens too quickly unless I know something like a Jowo can be swapped in.

[elippman]

I’m having a hard time finding anything that clarifies a difference between the Jowo standard and arrow nibs. I can see a difference in the picture, but I still have no idea what the effect is that the arrow design is aiming at. Any info would be helpful.

 

Also, as I look at the website mentioned above, I see that the steel nibs have optional gold plating. I’ve always wondered what the appeal of gold plating is (other than the aesthetics of the pen). I assume it might put a softer buffer between the paper and the steel, thus making an ever so slightly softer feel to the nib? I know the black coating has a feel that I don’t love, so I’m wondering if there’s an advantage to the gold. Also wondering if that would facilitate flow a bit.

 

Couple pens I’ve been thinking about with this ink—1) VAC 700R: It’s too expensive to risk ruining, but it does run quite a bit wetter than the eco, so might do well. I wonder if anyone has tried. 2) Old Sheaffer Lifetime: Has a medium gold nib and is a wet, incredibly reliable writer. It is, however, my only pen with a gold nib (despite having gotten it for $8 at an antique shop!) and I don’t want to run the risk of doing something that can’t be undone. After all, the nib units on those things can’t be taken apart to clean.

 

In the end, I’ll probably still just wait on the safety pen.

[IndigoBOB]

I have no idea about the arrow design. I wanted to try it out because I have a few pens that can take a #5.

 

I heard people were having trouble fitting #5 nibs in a Boston Safety Pen because the shoulders were too wide... I wonder if the Arrow nib might help.

 

I don't know much about plated nibs, other than they have a different feel, and I am not a fan of nibs that are plated over the tipping material.