Kung Te Cheng...or Equivalents

[jmccarty3]

Cuddles Flo and JB Pen Flush are two completely different types of product, so one cannot be substituted for the other. As best I can determine from reading the label, Cuddles Flo includes a surfactant and a biocide. Directions are to add a few drops per bottle of ink.

[elippman]

That was my suspicion. Glad to have it confirmed. CF is basically a lubricant with something in it to keep down mold possibilities, while JBs is a flush, probably containing a good bit of ammonia, which we wouldn't want to add to ink for lubrication purposes.

[IndigoBOB]

I recently purchased a 4.5z of KTC after a successful sample from Goulet, but the the new bottle is proving to have hards starts.

 

I am having the most success with it in an FPR Ebonite Himalaya right now, which is a wet writer to start with. It doesn't have hard starts, but "dry starts" sometimes if that makes sense: Semi-hard starts. But for the most part it's good, but I can tell the KTC needs a little more lubrication/surfactant. It would be nice to not be so cornered by my pen options for what is one of my favorite inks.

 

I also have an FPR Muft I'm going to try KTC with, but I'm waiting to swap in a TWSBI Mini/Eco Fine nib on its way since they are juicy nibs in pens like FPR's and Noodler's Charlie Pens.

 

That darn Cuddles Flo-plus is always out of stock so I have Photo-Flo on the way.

 

I love the color of KTC, which motivates me to make it work and find a pen to make it work with. I'm glad to hear others have had success with adding surfactants to it. It's a pain, but I'd rather get a dry ink I can modify than get an overly wet ink I can't. I loved 54th Mass, but I couldn't find a bottle that wasn't overly wet, which was a heartbreak.

 

I like Tardif's brilliance that drives him to make such beautiful inks, but I wish it didn't have the trade off of varying batches from a mad scientist. Nonetheless, if this is what it takes to get this ink to work it's better than not having that option.

 

There's just no equivalent inks, and I ain't making my own.

 

I hope I have success with the Photo Flo. @Sandy1 has some nice instructions I'll follow.

Edited December 14, 2017 by IndigoBOB

[elippman]

I found an old sample in my drawer and dumped it into a Muft and it worked very well until there was so little ink in the barrel that it alternated between hard starts and bubbling out. That was not a fun place to be, especially with such a permanent ink. When I do get a fuller bottle though, I plan on using that same Muft, but filling the barrel all the way up so as to avoid those other issues. I have a sneaking suspicion that it will work well. Wish I had access to that Cuddles' Flo, though.

[IndigoBOB]

I accidentally broke the feed of my Muft so I have to wait till monday for a replacement. In fact, that is the pen I have designated as my KTC pen. I find it to be a more usable version of the Charlie pen and the ebonite feed helps with the flow.

 

I definitely had to be careful with the muft, though. I left it nib end down in a stand and the cap was filled with ink the next day. I hadn't heat set it, though, so I don't know if that may have been the cause or what.

[elippman]

Yeah, I had the same thing happen with my Himalaya. But you're right, I do tend to prefer the Muft to the Charlie.

[elippman]

Just wondering for anyone who's had experience...how close to KTC is De Atramentis Robert Louis Stevenson?

[inkstainedruth]

Just wondering for anyone who's had experience...how close to KTC is De Atramentis Robert Louis Stevenson?

 

Not at all close. RLS is a dark blue -- but definitely a blue, and -- like a lot of the De Atramentis inks, fairly wet, IIRC. I liked the ink but couldn't decide if I had a use for it in my stash since I have a LOT of blue inks. KTC is very dark indigo (almost blue black, but not a teal-y one) with purple undertones (at least my bottle from a couple of years ago is) and when diluted it goes more purple. And of course, it's a bit of a problem child in its flow sometimes due to its saturation level -- some people have described it as being the consistency of paint. (OTOH, its "everything proof"-ness is really pretty astonishing....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[IndigoBOB]

 

Not at all close. RLS is a dark blue -- but definitely a blue, and -- like a lot of the De Atramentis inks, fairly wet, IIRC. I liked the ink but couldn't decide if I had a use for it in my stash since I have a LOT of blue inks. KTC is very dark indigo (almost blue black, but not a teal-y one) with purple undertones (at least my bottle from a couple of years ago is) and when diluted it goes more purple. And of course, it's a bit of a problem child in its flow sometimes due to its saturation level -- some people have described it as being the consistency of paint. (OTOH, its "everything proof"-ness is really pretty astonishing....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

I agree. As you can imagine I've searched for just the right Indigo or Blue-Purple and this one hit the spot of what I was looking for. I've tried as many samples of different inks as I could find, but I haven't found one one close. I wish it behaved more like Air-Corps Blue Black, but maybe my incoming photo-flo will help.

[elippman]

How interesting. To my eye, at least looking at scans (which is all I have of any of these inks), RLS looks more purple than blue at some times, more blue than purple at others, whereas De Atramentis Indigo (oddly named) looks like a dark true blue. I too have been searching forever for the perfect blurple. I've seen a lot of interesting inks from Kobe Maya Lapis to Visconti Blue, and whole host of inks with the word "sapphire" in them somewhere, but have never "arrived." KTC may be it. Keep in the loop when your photo-flo arrives. If it works without making a mess of the ink or compromising it, maybe it's the perfect substitute for Cuddles' Flo. I have read elsewhere people speculating that Cuddles' Flo is just photo-flo in smaller bottles, so who knows.

[IndigoBOB]

How interesting. To my eye, at least looking at scans (which is all I have of any of these inks), RLS looks more purple than blue at some times, more blue than purple at others, whereas De Atramentis Indigo (oddly named) looks like a dark true blue. I too have been searching forever for the perfect blurple. I've seen a lot of interesting inks from Kobe Maya Lapis to Visconti Blue, and whole host of inks with the word "sapphire" in them somewhere, but have never "arrived." KTC may be it. Keep in the loop when your photo-flo arrives. If it works without making a mess of the ink or compromising it, maybe it's the perfect substitute for Cuddles' Flo. I have read elsewhere people speculating that Cuddles' Flo is just photo-flo in smaller bottles, so who knows.

 

 

I felt the same way about De Atramentis Indigo.

 

I basically went through the entire inventory of Goulet Pen samples a while back and tried all the Blurples/Indigo's I could find. Nathan really hit the color on the bullseye IMO.

 

I'd be more than happy to share my results from the Photo-Flo. Sandy1 has good procedure for it so I'll be able to refer to her instructions. The Photo-Flo arrives on Monday for me.

[jmccarty3]

I have read elsewhere people speculating that Cuddles' Flo is just photo-flo in smaller bottles, so who knows.

 

Cuddles has some sort of biocide in it in addition to whatever it has for flow enhancement.

[inkstainedruth]

Anyone know where to get Cuddles Flo? Vanness seems to be OOS (I just looked at their website).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[eharriett]

Anyone know where to get Cuddles Flo? Vanness seems to be OOS (I just looked at their website).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

I KNOW that Anderson had it in a new bottle last month at the MI pen show, but I can't seem to see it on their site. I'd suggest contacting them and asking. They had plenty of it at the show.

[IndigoBOB]

OK, so I experimented with Photo-Flo and got some mixed results.

 

I followed Sandy1's procedure:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/199472-in-praise-of-dish-soap/?p=2033015

 

Results:

 

Pilot Metropolitan Fine Nib: Descent flow out of this pen after first application of Diluted Photo-Flo. I think the larger diameter of the Converter helps. I may consider using a Pilot pen with Kung Te-Cheng in the future. I wish the converters weren't so small for these pens. I loved how this wrote after the 3rd Application, but may have been a tiny too juicy and would have possibly required refills too often. The idea of Eye-Droppering a Prera is something I would consider.

 

Jinhao x750-Goulet Medium Nib: I had poor results out of this combo. Hard starts despite the increased wetness of the ink. After 3 separate applications of Photo-Flo the ink was overly wet and would have required refilling to quickly, and it still dried out easily on the nib.

 

My conclusion:

The warning on the bottle of Kung Te-Cheng is valid and not a joke. I use it unadulterated with an Ebonite Himalaya, which has an ebonite feed and writes wet without hard starts. I love this combo, but I can't use it with cheaper paper.

 

I was impressed by the Pilot Metro's performance, which may make it more useful for EDC . I really liked how the Photo-Flo-KTC was juicy out of this Fine Nib.

 

I don't think I am going to pursue much else with this. I love my Ebonite Himalaya with this ink and I'll probably stick with it or pursue similar pens to use KTC.

[amberleadavis]

Kung Te Cheng is a pretty unique ink. I have yet to find an ink that is remotely close in color (and of course there is *nothing* out there that is anywhere near as "everything proof"). Unfortunately, it's also so thick that it can get cloggy very easily. Some people don't like it because they say it's more like paint than ink....

I don't have all the inks suggested so far -- but Nioi Sumire is too purple, and Eclat de Saphir is both too blue (plus, it has pretty much zero water resistance). I had hopes for Kyoto TAG Soft Snows of Ohara, but it is also too purple; one of the interesting things about KTC is that it isn't *really* purple (at least my batch) -- it's really a dark indigo with purple undertones.

And If you dilute the ink with distilled water, all you end up with is something more purple (ask me how I know...).

Interesting to know that it's now in smaller bottles. Of course I have two of the 4-1/2 oz bottles, and will probably *never* use up both of them.... (I've had the first one for a couple of years and think that it's only down maybe a third at most... ). But it's one of the few inks that will write on those plastic "Post-it" flags -- and iron gall inks are not nearly as UV resistant....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

Based on my experience and tests, KTC is unique and it is water proof, fade proof, dirt proof and wind proof. We used it for our signs at our plant nursery. I have dubbed this ink Armageddon proof. If you like the color, but it. It will not go bad. It was created from ink stones. Follow Ruth's advice about a little more water. KTC is pretty amazing.

[IndigoBOB]

Yah, I was thinking about diluting KTC with a little water. The ink is so saturated to start with. It's good to know that helps.

 

The only reason I didn't was because it works very well in my FPR Himalaya and it writes wet and saturated the way I prefer.

 

A very unique ink, indeed. I've never enjoyed the view of an ink on a page as much as this. On my Nanami Writer it's dark and legible, but the color is still beautifully present with a vibrancy not lost in the darker hue, but it still has an old fashioned seriousness to it without dominating the personal enjoyment out of the color... or in other words an elegance.

 

And I love that it's permanent.

[wallylynn]

 

We used it for our signs at our plant nursery.

What are your signs made of? I tried writing on little Popsicle sticks and the feathering was quite bad.

[amberleadavis]

We would use regular paper and then laminate. OR we put it in between sheets of plastic (we had sign holders).

 

Feathering is made worse by adding water.

 

You can probably add Ghost Blue (try this in small doses).

[elippman]

I was just watching a video on the Boston Safety Pen that Noodler's has released in limited numbers. They expect to have it as a regular offering, but are having trouble producing the quantity to meet the demand, it seems. At any rate, it occurred to me that this might be the perfect pen for this ink. In theory, when the nib is retracted, it's surrounded by the ink. So the only time it isn't swimming in ink (assuming you keep it pretty full, I suppose) is when it's writing. Wouldn't this be the perfect solution for a thick, cloggy ink like this one?

Edited January 5, 2018 by elippman