Hi-End Pens Are A Lot Of Trouble

[jmnav]

@jmnav, how would you suggest the average fountain pen user, hobbyist and/or enthusiast define 'high-end', then?

Quality, of course (in the common meaning, not the industrial one) which, obviously, discards -at any price mark, objects that malfunction out of the box.

 

It used to be the case that higher quality objects were more expensive to buy, mainly because they were also more expensive to produce. And tipically, that's still true.

 

But then, a clever person in marketing noticed how much we tend to fail for the 'post hoc' fallacy: "hey", he said to himself, "since people know that quality items are more expensive, what will they think of an expensive item by itself?" et voilà, there you have expensive items being thought as high-end just because they are expensive instead of being expensive because they are high-end. It is said that it was Häagen-Dazs (yes, the ice cream maker) the first company to take this advantage in full.

 

Now: what's high-end, then? Well, my Montblanc 146 from the fifties is certainly high-end: it was expensive because it was marketed as a top of range and in order for their potential customers to accept it as such, was made to the best of Montblanc's ability, both in terms of craftmanship and quality of materials.

 

And, conversely, what is not high-end? I won't name names here to avoid harrasing anyone, but I could name some of the examples on this thread that were marketed as high-end and so, are sold expensively in the -quite usually fulfilled, expectation that their potential customers will accept the claim just because it's expensive.

 

In the end, pens like my aforementioned Monblanc 146, or my Matador 996, or my Waterman's Hundred Year de Luxe are high-end pens because, well, they are, and for this it doesn't matter that I bought them considerably cheaper than a vast majority of modern pens claiming such a status but that couldn't compete against them any day of the week.

[A Smug Dill]

I'm not knocking anyone for liking, enjoying or preferring piston-fill, or clear demonstrators, or broad/stub/'flex' nibs. I personally don't find them to have any positive contribution to any dimensions of product quality or as premium features; nothing about them makes them any more "high-end" than pens with F nibs of the same material, barrels of stock standard black 'resin'/acrylic, and use converters (of whatever capacity). So, given this is an open discussion in an online forum, I want to emphasise that there is no logical equivalence of piston-fill with "high-end", and thus if someone's troublesome experience with "high-end" pens is only with Italian piston-fillers, let's call it what it is – trouble with his/her personal preferences – and dismiss the idea that "high-end" or "high-priced" equals trouble because he/she fails to consider or experience the 90% (or whatever proportion) of "high-end" or "high-priced" pens that are not Italian piston-fillers. The "answer" to the questionable belief stated in the thread title is, therefore, "you should get out more and try something else equally high-end or high-priced, even if functionally those don't fit your personal preferences, before you make that statement."

 

Just to be clear, I'm sure there are "high-end" piston-fill demonstrators with stub nibs out there in the market, but they don't define what is a "high-end" pen, either within the entire catalogue of a single brand with varied products (different filling mechanisms, different bodies, different nibs) or the whole landscape of fountain pens.

Edited October 19, 2018 by A Smug Dill

[sub_bluesy]

I'm not knocking anyone for liking, enjoying or preferring piston-fill, or clear demonstrators, or broad/stub/'flex' nibs. I personally don't find them to have any positive contribution to any dimensions of product quality or as premium features; nothing about them makes them any more "high-end" than pens with F nibs of the same material, barrels of stock standard black 'resin'/acrylic, and use converters (of whatever capacity). So, given this is an open discussion in an online forum, let [/me/] make it clear that there is no logical equivalence of piston-fill with "high-end", and thus if someone's troublesome experience with "high-end" pens are only with Italian piston-fillers, let's call it what it is - trouble with his/her personal preferences, and dismiss the idea that "high-end" or "high-priced" equals trouble because he/she fails to consider or experience the 90% (or whatever proportion) of "high-end" or "high-priced" pens that are not Italian piston-fillers. The "answer" to the questionable belief stated in the thread title is, therefore, "you should get out more and try something else equally high-end or high-priced, even if functionally those don't fit your personal preferences, before you make that statement."

 

Just to be clear, I'm sure there are "high-end" piston-fill demonstrators with stub nibs out there in the market, but they don't define what is a "high-end" pen, either within the entire catalogue of a single brand with varied products (different filling mechanisms, different bodies, different nibs) or the whole landscape of fountain pens.

 

Ive got an Aurora Talentum black with a cracked/leaky converter and a Visconti Watermark stub nib vac filler in Italy for repairs right now. I got it all! Lol

[Precise]

Precise.....was the complaints coming from nail users, who are unused to a regular flex...which some 1000's are or semi-flex which others are.

A lot of ham fisted folks out there.

 

Not keeping track but whoops bend my nib is often mentioned.

Fat....well all post '97 (outside of the 200) Pelikans are..

.in the nib had been redesigned to be fat and blobby so ball point/roller ball don't have to do something time consuming and difficult; learn to hold a fountain pen behind the big index knuckle.

 

What other problems did you remember with the 1000...................interested in I'm a new owner of a used 1005, that is perfect for regular flex OBB.

It is OBB1/2 vs a pre'97 small 600 OBB.

 

 

I would say that the most common complaint related to excess wetness and dripping. I never inked the 1000 that I returned because it had a large space between the feed and the nib. I'm pretty sure that if I had inked it, it would have gushed.

As I said in my original mention of this pen, I have two Pelikan 800's and they are absolutely perfect. Other reviewers complaining about the 1000 frequently praised their 800's.

Alan

[KBeezie]

When I saw the topic headline, my first thought was that of most of the Italian pens I've tried. Had a couple Viscontis (Homo Sapiens and Divnia Desert Springs) where the nib/feed performance as disappointing to my expectation (either couldn't deliver a line with a light hand, or dried up too easily despite having it serviced), a couple Omas (pre-2007, and a post 2012 360) that were like that too in terms of the nib not being quite 'right'. Then the horrible Delta Italiana (not a high end but still) that had very poor nib performance that the retail brick and mortar seller kept trying to tell me I wasn't "pressing hard enough" as I tried to explain capillary action to him.

 

The only "high end" Italian that I got that I found to be excellent from the nib, to it's feel, to it's filling system, to cleaning, to aesthetics has been the Aurora Afrika LE and considering keeping Aurora the only Italian brand that I get if I aim for getting an 88 or Optima (similar characteristics to my Afrika).

 

Generally speaking, and this is clearly a stereotype but reinforced form my narrow personal experience, Italian pens, especially high end, are generally very beautiful and exotic, but their performance doesn't always seem to measure up to that beauty unless you spend the extra effort to have a third party professionally adjust and tune it, and even with that there are quality control issues (Visconti, and post-2007 Omas). Out of the box it seems like you're going to have a hit-or-miss issue, especially buying them when they suddenly show up with huge discounts.

 

Also far as high end in general goes, most of the big names known for status symbols bore me in the modern market. I cannot see myself purchasing (lol, if I end up in a situation where I can just spend for my idea of "high end") a modern high end MontBlanc or Pelikan, especially as the modern nibs are boring to me compared to the Montblancs, Pelikans, etc that I can get vintage.

 

This personal viewpoint has me looking at [modern] high end pens, as being mostly mantelpieces or status symbols more so than excellence in performance.

 

I would say that the most common complaint related to excess wetness and dripping. I never inked the 1000 that I returned because it had a large space between the feed and the nib. I'm pretty sure that if I had inked it, it would have gushed.

 

As I said in my original mention of this pen, I have two Pelikan 800's and they are absolutely perfect. Other reviewers complaining about the 1000 frequently praised their 800's.

 

Alan

No pen, high end or otherwise, when properly made should ever just "drip" from being held in the writing orientation. The ink is supposed to be delivered by capillary action, not start dripping from gravity alone (you know capillary action is failing in that case). There was a seller who mostly sells the nibs in flash sales and some vintage restored pens (whose name I shall not say) who actually tried to claim that all vintage pens drip/leak in defense of a complaint, but a properly restored pen should never do that any more than high end pens.

Edited October 21, 2018 by KBeezie

[A Smug Dill]

Also far as high end in general goes, most of the big names known for status symbols bore me in the modern market. I cannot see myself purchasing (lol, if I end up in a situation where I can just spend for my idea of "high end") a modern high end MontBlanc or Pelikan, especially as the modern nibs are boring to me compared to the Montblancs, Pelikans, etc that I can get vintage.

The Naginata nibs are anything but boring, and they're pretty "high-end", in my opinion; and, yes, they aren't cheap. I saw a set of 19 different Naginata nibs offered on Rakuten(?) a few months ago, and the asking price was close to nine grand if I'm not mistaken. Then I saw something similar on eBay, and the asking price was something like $38,000.

 

This personal viewpoint has me looking at [modern] high end pens, as being mostly mantelpieces or status symbols more so than excellence in performance.

Personally, I would trust a "high-end" Sailor, Pilot or Platinum (and I suppose Nakaya, but I have no personal experience with that brand) with a manufacturer's list price in excess of, say, ¥75,000 (~US$666) to perform very well as writing instruments, in spite of either a fancy maki-e / urushi-coated / 'precious wood' barrel and cap or a specialty nib (or both).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean only the Japanese brands have any claim to the "high-end" of the fountain pen market, but just that European brands certainly don't have the exclusive claim for "high-end" there today. Looking exclusively at European brands when intending/expecting to spend >US$600 is at best a personal preference of individual consumers, and not a matter of having 'better' taste in designs and finishes of pen barrels and/or the characteristics and performance of nibs. (Resale value in someone's 'local' market of collectors is not a relevant consideration.)

[KBeezie]

The Naginata nibs are anything but boring, and they're pretty "high-end", in my opinion; and, yes, they aren't cheap. I saw a set of 19 different Naginata nibs offered on Rakuten(?) a few months ago, and the asking price was close to nine grand if I'm not mistaken. Then I saw something similar on eBay, and the asking price was something like $38,000.

 

Personally, I would trust a "high-end" Sailor, Pilot or Platinum (and I suppose Nakaya, but I have no personal experience with that brand) with a manufacturer's list price in excess of, say, ¥75,000 (~US$666) to perform very well as writing instruments, in spite of either a fancy maki-e / urushi-coated / 'precious wood' barrel and cap or a specialty nib (or both).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean only the Japanese brands have any claim to the "high-end" of the fountain pen market, but just that European brands certainly don't have the exclusive claim for "high-end" there today. Looking exclusively at European brands when intending/expecting to spend >US$600 is at best a personal preference of individual consumers, and not a matter of having 'better' taste in designs and finishes of pen barrels and/or the characteristics and performance of nibs. (Resale value in someone's 'local' market of collectors is not a relevant consideration.)

 

Yea definitely much "higher" end that I would be used to, and I also agree that when it comes to Sailor, Pilot, Platinum/Nakaya, out of the box the nibs have pretty much just 'worked'. I don't think I've ever had to adjust even the cheaper Pilot nibs out of the box compared to a higher count of the western new pens out of the box.

 

Only reason I haven't really invested much in what you described of being high end Japanese pens is because I won't spend more than a few hundred in straight up cash for a pen (did that with the Visconti Divina Desert Springs, which was a disappointment specific to that pen), and haven't found those kind of pens that I liked by means of trade or barter that brought the cash value of those pens down. Did once have a Nakaya Piccolo Cigar with Fine nib, liked the body [but would want a writer], but the nib was 'ok-ish', not much different than getting a Platinum Century 3776 with a Fine.

 

But if I had a chance of getting something in the lane of a maki-e Namiki or something in Chinkin style without having to put that much cash up front, I likely wouldn't hesitate to get it. The problem is, most other people wouldn't hesitate either. Seems like most of the western brands of higher end pens have a much steeper value drop once it becomes used, as such easier to come by on the secondary market.

[A Smug Dill]

@KBeezie, thanks. I haven't invested that much either; I only have two of the Naginata nib varieties (and considering a third), and two "high-end" Pilot Namiki pens that commanded high prices for the barrels and not specialty nibs (although they both write very well out of the box).

 

Because I (unwisely?) have no regard for resale value, I tend to buy lots of pens that take my fancy, and if I'm buying several dozen largely mid-range pens (<US$150 each) because they individually appeal to me one way or another, then I cannot afford to buy to many "high-end" pens in the >U$600 range.

[KBeezie]

Of those nibs, I feel like I would really feel at home with the Naginata Cross Concord.

 

Because I (unwisely?) have no regard for resale value, I tend to buy lots of pens that take my fancy, and if I'm buying several dozen largely mid-range pens (<US$150 each) because they individually appeal to me one way or another, then I cannot afford to buy to many "high-end" pens in the >U$600 range.

I mean that's a rather reasonable observation, and it's something I should be acknowledging realistically speaking. Considering what I was doing 4 years ago having an insane amount of pens, most under the 50 USD range, just because they seemed appealing but I didn't put as much thought into what I would appreciate, hence why the shift as of about 2 years ago to start forcing myself to go lower in quantity and higher in quality if I do. (trying to force myself to get rid of two if I want to gain one) but I don't have too much regards to resell either, I just try to grab them if the price for me is good (historically I have a pretty good track record of getting them sold for the same or more than I got them for, probably on account of my photography, and being rather detailed in describing them).

 

I already hit my personal goal of having 16 or less (Down from about 36, which was down from about 90+ before then), the next step is to get it down to 12 that I like best.

 

And if I'm *really* disciplined I can push myself to get rid of some more either by sale/trade so that I end up with just 6 (because realistically, that should cover a decent nib range or other aspect for me to use either as an EDC, or flex, or flourish, etc)

 

On the Japanese high side of things, two types of finishings come to mind that I been really wanting to acquire in the long run, 1) Something in a Tamenuri finish (similar to the discontinued Shiro-Tamenuri that Nakaya offered), 2) Something in an actual layered Maki-e or carved Chinkin (either one I would want to feature cherry blossoms). But nib wise I would want something soft on a pen of that caliber.

 

So in that regards, if I actually forced myself to get rid of a few, I could *maybe* get one but I feel like I would have to get rid of my Aurora Afrika, Danitrio Hyotan, Pelikan M640, the couple of MT Swans, and maybe both my vintage MontBlanc just to make that happen. And the trouble is, I do all that, I get a higher end one, and I end up not caring for the writing performance.

Edited October 21, 2018 by KBeezie

[wspohn]

The only high end pens I have had problems with were two Conway Stewarts that were defective out of the box, one a rather expensive sterling model. As they were the first two pens of that brand I had owned, I took it as a sign from on high that the brand was not for me. One had manufacturing defects and one had the nib and section fall out the first time it was inked.

 

BTW, for a good time, try a sailor specialty nib. I have a King Eagle that is a hoot to write with. Excellent quality control on all their nibs, too. From Britain, Yard-o-Led also has a great rep for quality - no problems there.

[Tseg]

Personally, I would trust a "high-end" Sailor, Pilot or Platinum (and I suppose Nakaya, but I have no personal experience with that brand) with a manufacturer's list price in excess of, say, ¥75,000 (~US$666) to perform very well as writing instruments, in spite of either a fancy maki-e / urushi-coated / 'precious wood' barrel and cap or a specialty nib (or both).

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean only the Japanese brands have any claim to the "high-end" of the fountain pen market, but just that European brands certainly don't have the exclusive claim for "high-end" there today. Looking exclusively at European brands when intending/expecting to spend >US$600 is at best a personal preference of individual consumers, and not a matter of having 'better' taste in designs and finishes of pen barrels and/or the characteristics and performance of nibs. (Resale value in someone's 'local' market of collectors is not a relevant consideration.)

 

My Namiki Urushi Vermillion No. 20 (M) has one of my best writing nibs out of the box. Higher end vintage pens are also fantastic (Geha 790 M-OB [MS], for instance). I had a multi-month bad experience with a Pelikan M1000 (M) nib but after much 'adjustment' by myself it has been transformed from writing like a super sloppy BB with burrs to an amazing Fine writer. My biggest issue with a high end pen is I had an amazing vintage Montblanc 34 that just disappeared, but that is a whole other story. I find myself writing primarily with my higher end pens than the more value end pens I got when I started my collection. My higher end pens tend to have better ergonomics, higher quality feel and all-around higher quality nib performance (even if I had to provide an adjustment or two to get them there). And I just like them more because I'm a snob.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Tseg

[Corona688]

It used to be the case that higher quality objects were more expensive to buy, mainly because they were also more expensive to produce. And typically, that's still true.

 

But then, a clever person in marketing noticed how much we tend to fail for the 'post hoc' fallacy: "hey", he said to himself, "since people know that quality items are more expensive, what will they think of an expensive item by itself?" et voilà, there you have expensive items being thought as high-end just because they are expensive instead of being expensive because they are high-end. It is said that it was Häagen-Dazs (yes, the ice cream maker) the first company to take this advantage in full.

 

Except for a few diehard "precious resin" holdouts, it's generally accepted that expensive pens are made of the same materials as cheap ones. What you're paying for is art and hand-work.

 

People expect hand-work to mean automatic quality, but in truth, hand-work opens up a lot of room for error. Nobody* has time to check 100% of their product, but the consequences of not doing so with hand-assembled products can be large.

 

*Almost nobody. Around the dawn of the transistor age, transistors were so unreliable that, to get a 99% success rate, there was one company that was known to check every single one. Customers caught on when they realized that the single faulty transistor in the box of 100 always came in the same corner of the box. These days, the most expensive semiconductors are graded for quality and the worst ones have their malfunctioning parts crippled so they can be sold as a cheaper something else.

Edited October 26, 2018 by Corona688

[Precise]

I confess that it irritates me that the best of my expensive pens, like my Pilot Custom Urushi, don't write any better than many of my $10 Chinese pens. And in some cases, my high-end pens don't write as well as the cheapo pens.

[sub_bluesy]

I confess that it irritates me that the best of my expensive pens, like my Pilot Custom Urushi, don't write any better than many of my $10 Chinese pens. And in some cases, my high-end pens don't write as well as the cheapo pens.

I’ve never had a bad writing Jinhao. Ever. Kind of annoying isn’t it?? Lol

[cokebuck]

I'm not a pen snob. Just sign lots of docs and checks all day. My arsenal of inkers perform as follows:

$25 Kaweco Sports get the job done every time with no frills

$100 Pilot vanishing point also gets it done with extra smoothness

$Thousands Namiki do not start perfectly every time but are smoother than a baby's butt and are astounding to look at and feel.

In the end, they're just pens.