To Dip Or Not To Dip?

[Redpanda]

Hello

I was wondering if any one had any thoughts on dip pens and comparisons between glass vs steel dip pens (size, feel, ink capacity, performance ect.).

I have been "using" for nearly a year now. I would like more pens but my budget is not pen friendly at the moment. I also have a desire to explore more inks as you can pick up lots of samples for a reasonable price. As I only have three pens and a note system for uni that means not changing the colours before a new semester begins I thought that a dip pen would be a fun way to explore new inks.

 

If anyone could recommend a few pens or a type of pen I would be very happy. Also does the dip pen change the appearance of the ink on the paper and do you need special paper for them?

 

Also with regards to the glass pens I have heard that they are more FP ink friendly but I am a bit nervous about getting one as I would be worried about it breaking. ( I had a Loom that slipped out of my hands a few weeks ago and landed on the nib and now sits on my desk inkless and alone )

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Chrissy]

A glass dip pen is ideal for dipping into and trying out ink samples, as it's very easy to clean. Generally speaking, ink for dip pens is slightly different to that used for fountain pens.

 

I have 2 glass dip pens, and I'm careful with them so that I don't break them. Not that you could ever carry one around in a pocket though.

[Redpanda]

  On 10/8/2017 at 12:19 PM, Chrissy said:

A glass dip pen is ideal for dipping into and trying out ink samples, as it's very easy to clean. Generally speaking, ink for dip pens is slightly different to that used for fountain pens.

 

I have 2 glass dip pens, and I'm careful with them so that I don't break them. Not that you could ever carry one around in a pocket though.

 

Which pens do you have? do they write differently and have you noticed a difference in the ink behaviour/colour when using fp ink?

 

I am usually over cautious with everything so I should hopefully be okay with purchasing one! How fragile is the tip of the pen when writing with it?

[ENewton]

I love my glass dip pen. However, for a person on a budget there is also a whole world to explore with inexpensive steel dip nibs. I have one holder and just swap the nibs as I please. If you want an overview of the possibilities, look here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/75953-dip-pens-for/

 

If, on the other hand, you just want someone to recommend a good dip pen to start, I would suggest that you try a Zebra G nib. You can use the same inks you do with your fountain pens, as well as other inks you would never use with a fountain pen. Any paper you use with your fountain pen will work, and if you are interested in varying the width of lines as you write, you can use it for that. Steep dip nibs are not intended to last long, although if you use fountain-pen ink, they will last for some time, but one can buy a handful of them for less than the cost of a sandwich.

 

With any dip pen, you will need to dip the pen in ink after every few lines, but that is an interesting experience in itself.

[Chrissy]

If you wish to use a dip pen regularly then calligraphy ink might be a good idea.

 

I have 2 J Herbin glass dip pens for ink testing. They are fairly fragile, but are OK to write with if you can avoid breaking the very fine point when dipping them into ink or water after writing with them.

[Redpanda]

  On 10/8/2017 at 3:22 PM, ENewton said:

I love my glass dip pen. However, for a person on a budget there is also a whole world to explore with inexpensive steel dip nibs. I have one holder and just swap the nibs as I please. If you want an overview of the possibilities, look here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/75953-dip-pens-for/

 

If, on the other hand, you just want someone to recommend a good dip pen to start, I would suggest that you try a Zebra G nib. You can use the same inks you do with your fountain pens, as well as other inks you would never use with a fountain pen. Any paper you use with your fountain pen will work, and if you are interested in varying the width of lines as you write, you can use it for that. Steep dip nibs are not intended to last long, although if you use fountain-pen ink, they will last for some time, but one can buy a handful of them for less than the cost of a sandwich.

 

With any dip pen, you will need to dip the pen in ink after every few lines, but that is an interesting experience in itself.

Thank you so much! That is exactly what I am looking for! I like the idea of the steel ones as they are less expensive and when the nibs wear out you can change them. I have just heard that many fountain pen inks are too watery for the steel dip pens, but maybe the nib type that you suggest is compatible with such inks.

[ac12]

 

 

  On 10/8/2017 at 3:47 PM, Redpanda said:

Thank you so much! That is exactly what I am looking for! I like the idea of the steel ones as they are less expensive and when the nibs wear out you can change them. I have just heard that many fountain pen inks are too watery for the steel dip pens, but maybe the nib type that you suggest is compatible with such inks.

 

I though FP inks would be too watery, but that is not the case. I use FP inks with my dip pen all the time. Though I do use an oblique dip pen holder that is adjusted to hold the nib at a shallow angle. And I use the G nibs (Nikko, Tachikawa and Zebra). But you do have to clean the nib of manufacturing oils, for the ink to stick to the nib. And you will have to dip frequently, so don't expect to write half a page with one dip.

[dcwaites]

If you want a dip pen that is very close to what a fountain pen will write like, then get a #6 fountain pen nib (you can get 5 Jinhao nibs for only a few dollars on eBay) and put it in a dip pen holder.

 

Otherwise, a dip pen nib that is very easy for beginners to use just for writing is a Speedball Hunt 512. It will give you a very fine line, but will work with many FP inks.

 

A vintage Brandauer Scribbler will give you a different type of written line, but is solid and reliable and will work with even more inks than the Hunt 512.

 

I have tried the Nikko G nibs, but I find it is too fine and scratchy. It was designed for drawing Manga, not writing.

 

Once you are up and running, look for a handful or so of Falcon nibs (Eagle or Esterbrook). Of all the dip pen designs available from the late 19th to middle 20th centuries, they were the most popular (i.e. people paid good money for them, rather than being supplied to you by your school or office).

 

Most of the dull stainless steel nibs (Hunt 512, Brandauer Scribbler) don't need any preparation other than a quick clean.

Others I usually clean with an old toothbrush and dilute detergent (rinse very well, then rinse again), and then prime, either with an ink that sticks (Noodlers Kung Te Cheng or Baystate Blue) or dilute (~2%) egg white or saliva. Coat the nib, wait till it dries, then rinse off. You should then get enough ink on the pen to write several lines.

 

Basically, for about 120 years, people just picked up their pen, dipped and wrote. It should be that simple.

 

Also, you need to look to older style inks that are not very saturated, and don't have much surfactant (detergent) in them. Avoid Noodlers (except Noodler's Black), Private Reserve and Diamine. All, except the NB, are too wet to use in dip pens. Go for Sheaffer Skrip, Pelikan (4001 or Edelstein) or Sailor Jentle.

Edited October 8, 2017 by dcwaites

[ac12]

I found that the glass dip pen that I tried, would write very wet after dipping, then dry out as the ink is used up.

Maybe it was just that one glass dip pen and the ink that I used, but I was not particularly impressed with it.

 

Some steel nibs behave similarly.
I have a Goulette #6 that goes from WET to dry in a few words. That particular nib is very unsuitable for writing with, in a straight dip pen holder. It may be my specific nib that behaves like that.

 

I used the G nib for writing letters, and it worked just fine, for me. In fact it is my standard writing nib.

I used Staples 20# sugar cane paper, which is not particularly smooth (compared to Rhodia and Clairefontaine).

[sidthecat]

I dived in at the deep end. By the merest chance I handled a large gold super flexible dipper and it awakened a truly ugly compulsion. Anyone who cherishes flex will understand.

Just don’t pity me, okay?

[AAAndrew]

I understand, Sid, I understand. It's not a compulsion, it's an enlightenment.

 

One thing to remember about using a dip nib of any composition to test inks, is that all dip nibs lay down ink in a greater amount, in other words a much wetter line, than a fountain pen. The only exceptions are at the extreme ends: super-broad, super-wet broad fountain pens, or super-fine, firm steel dip nibs.

 

There are two aspects to dip nibs that can cause problems with dip nibs: the wetter line over-loading paper, and the lack of feed combines with too much wetting agents to promote flow so that the ink just flows too quickly off the nib.

 

The first issue can be address by using really good paper. I like 25% cotton paper. The second can sometimes be helped by adding water to the ink which dilutes the surfactant and may allow it to be less "wet."

 

What I would recommend for testing new inks is to get yourself an Esterbrook Renew-point Dip-less dip pen. these use the standard Esterbrook replaceable nibs with a feed, but were made for use in a dip inkwell (e.g. 444's, 407's). You can get an orphan dip-less pen and a standard nib like a 1550 for not much money. Even better, get a couple of nibs. When you're trying inks, dip in ink 1 and try it out. When finished, swish the nib around in water, unscrew and let it soak for a minute or two in water while you screw the other ink in the handle and try out Ink 2. Dry off the first nib (wrap it in dry paper towels to get as much water out of it as possible), and then use that to test ink 3 while the second nib cleans out.

 

Andrew of the Many Dip Nibs,

[Redpanda]

  On 10/9/2017 at 12:09 PM, AAAndrew said:

 

What I would recommend for testing new inks is to get yourself an Esterbrook Renew-point Dip-less dip pen. these use the standard Esterbrook replaceable nibs with a feed, but were made for use in a dip inkwell (e.g. 444's, 407's). You can get an orphan dip-less pen and a standard nib like a 1550 for not much money. Even better, get a couple of nibs. When you're trying inks, dip in ink 1 and try it out. When finished, swish the nib around in water, unscrew and let it soak for a minute or two in water while you screw the other ink in the handle and try out Ink 2. Dry off the first nib (wrap it in dry paper towels to get as much water out of it as possible), and then use that to test ink 3 while the second nib cleans out.

 

 

 

I will check this out! I assume that they are only available from places like the 'bay. There is so much more to dip pens than I initially thought!

[AAAndrew]

head over the Esterbrook forum and ask around. Someone there might be able to point you to a source closer to you. they're friendly over there.

[RoyalBlueNotebooks]

If you don't mind I'd like to share my experience.

 

My experience with a glass dip pen is limited to having tried one in an art supply store. It was smoother than I expected but I didn't like the lack of line variation and the fact that one side stops writing and you need to rotate the pen to write more. I'm used to fountain pens and dip pens, and they only work on the one side. This feature is very nice but it was off-putting for me.

 

For lettering I use Zebra G-pen nibs. I bought a tiny box of 10 pieces in a bundle with a Tachikawa T-40 holder for 16€ so I guess the box of nibs cost around 10€ and the holder 6€. Considering that each nib can last months if taken good care of (regular cleaning), I think 10€ for 10 pieces is a good deal.

 

For the pen holder I use a wooden straight holder with a triangular grip section. I bought it in a physical store so I can't link it to you but it's something like this, only that it is all made of wood. I really like it, it's comfortable to use even if it's just a regular, 4€-worth straight holder.

 

I use Pelikan 4001 series with my dip pen because my Pelikan drawing ink is almost at the end and I don't care about buying more. The Pelikan 4001 series consists of normal fountain pen inks but they all perform well with the Zebra G-pen nibs in my experience.

Interestingly, the colors of the inks vary when I write with a fountain pen in contrast to the dip pen. I've noticed that every color is darker with the dip pen, which is very interesting to me. Especially the Brillant-Rot. In a fountain pen it's a pink/salmon color depending on the paper, but with the dip pen it tends to be a true red ink.

 

As for the paper, I primarily use Fabriano 80-85g/m2 and Rhodia Pad #18, but with my dip pen I prefer using a cardboard-like paper of 120-160g/m2 from a local factory, so my suggestion is keep yourself on the higher g/m2 rather than the lower, since in my experience lightweight paper doesn't agree well with dip pens.

[Noihvo]

[sidthecat]

My pens run the gamut: from dry-ish (not unlike my vintage fountain pen nibs) to somewhat wet, in the case of one particular John Holland, with a medium-broad tip). I use an iron-gall ink with them, which lays down a line of appealing density. I’d use the Platinum IG in my hybrid pens if I trusted it more.

[johnboz]

I just picked up my first glass pen a few weeks ago. It's nothing like I expected. It lays down a very wet line and has a lot of ink capacity. When I'm not using it I keep it in the box it came in. When I am using it, I make sure it won't roll anywhere when I lay it down and I'm careful not to do anything else when I'm holding it. It's fast and easy to clean and makes sampling inks a breeze.

 

I bought a cheap $5 glass pen from China and the tip definitely has good and bad sides. I would assume that a slightly better glass pen would be smooth regardless of which side of the tip is touching the paper.

 

Compared to a dip pen, I would say a glass pen is much easier to write with. Many fine and flexible steel dip pens can be very scratchy and will catch on paper. They also don't seem to hold as much ink as the glass pen. You could always get some of the Speedball calligraphy dip pen nibs, which have a big ink capacity and are easy to write with, but they take a bit more cleaning when switching between inks.

[ENewton]

  On 10/15/2017 at 5:29 PM, johnboz said:

I bought a cheap $5 glass pen from China and the tip definitely has good and bad sides. I would assume that a slightly better glass pen would be smooth regardless of which side of the tip is touching the paper.

 

 

I remember that when I received my glass dip pen, there was a flyer with it assuring me that I could smooth the tip if I felt the need to do so. I haven't needed to do so--which is a good thing, because I am not very daring.

 

Here is a thread that includes advice on that subject:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/217424-best-way-to-sand-a-glass-dip-pen/

[AAAndrew]

The glass pen is definitely more forgiving of a heavy hand. Dip pens, especially pointed ones, require a very light yet controlled touch. That, and positioning (of hand, pen, and paper) are the hardest aspects of learning to use them.

[johnboz]

  On 10/15/2017 at 6:24 PM, ENewton said:

 

I remember that when I received my glass dip pen, there was a flyer with it assuring me that I could smooth the tip if I felt the need to do so. I haven't needed to do so--which is a good thing, because I am not very daring.

 

Here is a thread that includes advice on that subject:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/217424-best-way-to-sand-a-glass-dip-pen/

 

Good to know. Thanks!