Fountain Pen Use For Legal Documents

[Maurizio]

Those attorneys are quite ridiculous for telling you you can't use your fountain pens, number one because the "ink" they're asking you to use is not archival anyway and no better than the ink you wanted to use, so they're just stupid, and, number two, because most legal documents today are scanned into a computer and preserved digitally anyway, though it is true that for real estate, and estate transactions, originals remain more important than in other legal areas.

 

I am an attorney who does civil litigation and trials, not real estate or estates; I prefer to sign my legal documents in blue ink to distinguish them from photocopies. As a trial attorney, I'm familiar with the rules of evidence. As a matter of evidentiary law it is not absolutely necessary to have the original signature available on the document; a photocopy will be admissible in court as long as you have the person who provided the signature available as a witness to acknowledge that it was her or his signature. If that person is no longer available, that's another issue and then we enter the realm of forensic analysis and witnesses. But again, the cheap ballpoint or gel ink insisted on by the attorneys here is in no way superior, from an evidentiary standpoint, to the pens or ink that the OP wanted to use.

 

While there certainly are cases involving forgery, and I've heard horror stories about scammers forging people's signatures ( or using a digital ones) on false mortgage documents for example, and there certainly are examples of people attempting to forge or modify wills, these are relatively rare events, and usually require forensics to sort out. However, the attorneys insisting on ballpoint ink are not protecting their clients from forgery by so doing because this ink can be bleached or sometimes even erased out. If you are signing a real estate or will type document, you should insist or using some kind of permanent ink (it doesn't have to be Noodler's bullet-proof though that's ideal) but something like at least an iron gall, or a pigmented permanent ink. You can then chastise your dumb head uninformed lawyers for their poor document management techniques; and, by the way, they should be using archival (acid-free paper) if the document is a will or some such other document where preservation of the original paper is important; most attorneys don't even bother to think about this.

 

Sorry if my tone is a little harsh; like Sandy1, I don't suffer fools gladly, and it annoys my sensibilities to hear about blockhead lawyers telling their client not to use his pens or inks for no substantial reason other than their ignorance for which the client is still paying a legal fee.

 

Finally, I should note that today if there is to be any forgery, it will more likely be of the digital kind using Photoshop or some such technique, not upon the actual piece of original paper or original ink, rendering again the attorneys' insistence on ballpoints risible. We should be more concerned with the digital document management practices of all the entities which hold our documents than with insisting on the use of ballpoints.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Maurizio

[Bill P]

Just recently, a Notary Public came to our home for the signing of some legal documents. I was absolutely not allowed to use a fountain pen. It had to be a blue ballpoint. This young lady provided the pens, and they were cheap drug-store ballpoints. I tried to show her that the ink I was using, Sheaffer Skrip Blue, was a wonderful blue color. Absolutely not allowed.

 

In the past, I have been invited into mortgage and lawyer's offices for the purpose of signing documents. Fountain pens were absolutely not allowed.

 

Colors of these supplied ballpoints varied from black to blue, some were gel pens, but I would always bring two fountain pens filled with black and blue inks. Never allowed to use them.

 

I am an ardent fountain pen user. I have several, and have expended a considerable amount of money on my small collection. They are wonderful, but I have yet to convince anyone to let me use my own pen for those important signings.

 

I suppose one could make the argument that the ballpoints supplied had archival inks in them. Maybe the gel pen, but those ballpoints were el-cheapo stick pens.

 

Have any of you experienced the same behavior?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Over the last 40 years I have signed a ton of notarized and or legal documents and never had anyone tell me what Pen or type of Pen to sign with. Sounds like you experienced some folks who were either doing what they were told, or what they may have experienced and took it as the only way to sign.. (Today there are non fountain pens with erasable ink...)

I almost always use a permanent ink, with a color other than black. (with some blacks it could be difficult to determine the original from a copy)..so I usually use Blue/black or a dark blue...and a color that will copy...some lighter colors simply don't copy well.

 

FOUNTAIN PENS FOR EVER!!

[bigkahuna]

This is a great thread, good information. Tagged and following.

[sidthecat]

The convention of blue ink was explained to me once in terms of easily telling an original document from a copy. This sounded faintly logical at the time.

The last time I dealt with a lawyer she was fascinated with my cracked-ice ringtop Moore, so she had no problems with my using it to sign things.

My problem is that my current signature, which has evolved to deal with duplicate checks and digital pads, doesn't really work with fountain pens, so I have to re-design it. It's an interesting problem: has anyone else dealt with signature devolution?

[Sandy1]

Edited for clarity & context

 

Hi,

 

As a follow-on to Member Mauizio and others who are doing their best to be polite and progressive ...

 

If someone were to insist on me using their proffered pen, I'd ask if the ink was compliant with whatever ISO-nnnn is relevant for permanent ink. If not, I'd walk away and/or invite them to play 'Kendo for Bozos in the Dojo' ITRW. المطوعين always welcome

 

FP ink makers have gifted us with 'permanent' inks, so I see no reason to degrade whatever document is in play by using an ink that is not permanent.

 

That said, I know that I-G inks are not ISO compliant, but their use is a matter of custom and precedent. e.g. Registrars ink.

 

Bye,

Ms Grumpy

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sandy1

[Tasmith]

Hi,

 

Trying to be polite and progressive here ...

 

If someone were to insist on me using their proffered pen, I'd ask if the ink was compliant with whatever ISO-nnnn is relevant for permanent ink. If not, I'd walk away.

 

FP ink makers have gifted us with 'permanent' inks, so I see no reason to degrade whatever document is in play by using an ink that is not permanent. That said, I know that I-G inks are not ISO compliant, but their use is a matter of custom and precedent - e.g. Registrars ink.

 

Bye,

Ms Grumpy

According to my Montblanc Permanent Blue ink box, it's ISO 14145-2 Certified.

[dcwaites]

I believe that there are more FP inks document-certified than ballpoints.

[Sandy1]

I believe that there are more FP inks document-certified than ballpoints.

 

 

 

Aye!

 

Some time ago I had a natter with a fellow Member about ISO certified roller balls. I learned some things I'd like to forget, like anyone can label their product as 'permanent'. Ye olde Parker Quink was labelled as permanent, but that designation was withdrawn - the nice people at Parker said that nothing is permanent. (Are they doing too much yoga or is it existentialism or etc.?)

 

Bye,

Less Grumpy S1

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sandy1

[Jamesbeat]

Look at it from the point of view of the person who's document you are signing.

How do they know that the ink in your pen is ISO compliant?

 

Should they be expected to have encyclopedic knowledge of essentially obsolete pens and their inks?

 

Should they be expected to take the signer's word that the pen is not filled with Parker Washable Blue, which will vanish if someone accidentally knocks over a bottle of water near it?

 

Should they not be suspicious when some crackpot insists on using their own special pen?

 

 

I signed a car finance document today, and even though I had a fountain pen on me, I used the proffered ballpoint.

 

Why?

Honestly, because I think insisting on using my fountain pen would have been a bit pretentious.

[Sandy1]

Look at it from the point of view of the person who's document you are signing.

How do they know that the ink in your pen is ISO compliant?

 

Should they be expected to have encyclopedic knowledge of essentially obsolete pens and their inks?

 

Should they be expected to take the signer's word that the pen is not filled with Parker Washable Blue, which will vanish if someone accidentally knocks over a bottle of water near it?

 

Should they not be suspicious when some crackpot insists on using their own special pen?

 

 

I signed a car finance document today, and even though I had a fountain pen on me, I used the proffered ballpoint.

 

Why?

Honestly, because I think insisting on using my fountain pen would have been a bit pretentious.

 

 

Hi,

 

Indeed sir! Your opinion is respected.

 

Sometimes I put forward a 'contrary' notion just to see what's what - how absurd or close to the bone can this get?

 

Perhaps we should proffer our FP to the second party for them to sign the document? (S1 is naughty!)

 

I cast suspicion on those who would have me conform to their standard - perhaps like the serpent offering Eve an apple, when she really really wants a mango or perhaps a chicken pot pie.

 

Not to say that we shouldn't make our mark in freshly drawn blood so DNA can authenticate that mark.

 

I do not feel the least bit pretentious about using an FP - I've been using one as a daily writer since fourteen years of age - a tad more than a decade in lady years. (Ha!)

 

As for Washable inks, I prefer Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue for instances that I hope my signature fades.

 

I'll sign in whatever manner I choose, and if someone doesn't like it - too bad - it is not up for debate, waste of breath or daft squittering.

 

 

Bye,

Nearly normal S1

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sandy1

[amberleadavis]

Dear James, I wonder if you would expect the same response if you were to pull out your anti-microbial ball point. As for the pretentiousness of using your own pen especially a fountain pen - well, I don't think insisting on using your own pen is pretentious at all. I've seen what people do to and with their pens and I'd rather not be touching those cooties - I prefer my cooties.

 

Dear Maruizo, as a fellow litigator, I agree with what you have described.

 

For those of you who are interested, my fade tests showed that many of the gel and ballpoint inks faded really fast. Oh, and Noodler's KTC is Armageddon resistant so if you really need permanence, use KTC.

[Jamesbeat]

To clarify, I don't think that using a fountain pen in general is pretentious, nor do I think that wanting to use a treasured pen to sign an important document is pretentious.

 

I do however believe that using a fountain pen is a personal pleasure for me.

I do try to share that pleasure with others and 'convert' people. I often give away inexpensive Chinese pens to friends and coworkers in the hope that they will enjoy them too.

 

One thing that does not factor into it though is what others think of me as a result of me using fountain pens.

I am not trying to impress anyone or cultivate an air of eccentricity or class about myself.

 

Signing a car finance document, mortgage or other important paperwork is important.

It is not the time for indulging in my hobby, demonstrating how posh and refined I am, or getting into a discussion about inks.

 

To me, it raises the question of why it is so important to use one's own pen instead of just using the d**n ballpoint.

 

Edit: yes, cooties are a consideration I can agree with.

We have to sign in and out of my office because of fire regulations, and I bet that ballpoint is a n excellent vector for disease.

If there is a sickness going round, I always try to remember to have a ballpoint on me to use instead.

I don't use my fountain pen to sign the book because it makes my signature stand out amongst the others, which looks a bit gauche

 

Having said that, I don't think cooties are a valid enough reason to lecture someone on the finer points of ink permanence.

If you're going to be signing something important, you will know about it in advance.

Simply bring your own ballpoints, one black, one blue.

Then tell the person that you think you are getting a cold, and you want to use your own pen to avoid passing it on to them.

 

No arguments about the properties of ink, merits of fountain pens etc, and no cooties.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Jamesbeat

[Sandy1]

My dearest Jamesbeat and other Members,

 

As a matter of strategy, I have my pen out and on the desk/table before formalities commence. If signing is to be done, I'm ready to get it done then leave before my coffee gets cold. I've often signed stuff when I've just walked in, and don't bother to take a seat. ('You have papers to be signed? Hand them to me.' No chicken pot pie either.)

 

No huggy bunny funny business sidetracks yours truly.

 

​I await Montblanc issue of an ISO certified Permanent Pink.

 

 

Bye,

Slowly healing S1

 

__ __

The last time I heard 'cooties' was in the dialogue of the film 'Pulp Fiction'. I had to Google it. Uma makes it sound like one should have/share cooties. But that's just Uma, not the Red Cross/Crescent.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sandy1

[amberleadavis]

 

 

No huggy bunny funny business sidetracks yours truly.

 

​I await Montblanc issue of an ISO certified Permanent Pink.

 

 

Bye,

Slowly healing S1

 

 

Well, we all know that I sign legal contracts in pink ink, and since the registrar of voters in Massachusetts required the first female voters to use pink (check out NT's video on Suffragist Carmine), I'm happy to use it. That being said, I use a water resistant fade resistant blue ink for documents that are to be scanned for the county. I sign and notarize a lot of documents and I'm not interested in writing with ball points. I'm all about being gauche - I live in Vegas, baby.

[Sandy1]

 

 

Well, we all know that I sign legal contracts in pink ink, and since the registrar of voters in Massachusetts required the first female voters to use pink (check out NT's video on Suffragist Carmine), I'm happy to use it. That being said, I use a water resistant fade resistant blue ink for documents that are to be scanned for the county. I sign and notarize a lot of documents and I'm not interested in writing with ball points. I'm all about being gauche - I live in Vegas, baby.

 

 

Hi,

 

Mostly I write from The Office of Ms Blue-Black, and prefer I-G inks.

 

And from the isle of PET, and love to hula till dawn. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/260716-you-can-only-have-o-n-e/?p=2897586

 

Lately its been one desert after another ... I reckon Vegas is a desert town, yes?

 

Bye,

S1

the drugs are kicking in

 

http://orig10.deviantart.net/fd93/f/2012/332/7/8/hello_jolly_roger_by_ncozz-d5mg314.jpg

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sandy1

[dcwaites]

And where did you get the portrait of my miss kitty? She is currently outside eyeballing a noisy myna, who is returning the favour, noisily...

[Maurizio]

Dear James, I wonder if you would expect the same response if you were to pull out your anti-microbial ball point. As for the pretentiousness of using your own pen especially a fountain pen - well, I don't think insisting on using your own pen is pretentious at all. I've seen what people do to and with their pens and I'd rather not be touching those cooties - I prefer my cooties.

 

Dear Maruizo, as a fellow litigator, I agree with what you have described.

 

For those of you who are interested, my fade tests showed that many of the gel and ballpoint inks faded really fast. Oh, and Noodler's KTC is Armageddon resistant so if you really need permanence, use KTC.

 

I appreciate the corroboration AmberLea.

 

I'm with all of us here who want to use fountain pens when we want to use them.

 

Having hung around here for several years now and gotten a flavour of the tenor and tone of things, I don't believe that most of us, or maybe even all of us would insist on using a fountain pen from any desire to be superior or to show off our flashy hardware. People here are nice, and welcoming, and willing to share knowledge and experience about pens, inks and paper. With some rare exceptions, the tone of discussion is decently civil. I think there's a bit of a maverick in many here who refuse to follow what 99% of the rest of the world does for putting marks on paper; we don't insist on others using a fountain pen, but we rightly resist when others attempt to impose their preference for ballpoints on us. There is no rational reason for using a ballpoint, only accepted custom and convention. We may be Dodo birds but that's our business and there's no good reason for us to stop using fountain pens. Sure some here may be obsessive but again that's nobody's business. Using a fountain pen is a simple pleasure that others may find incomprehensible. So be it.

 

Sure I carry a ballpoint because, believe it or not, the New York Court System still uses carbon-copy forms. Any business still using such forms shows itself to be a dinosaur for not already transitioning to regular paper and scanning. Only government can get away with still using carbon forms without losing customers.

 

There is also a lot to be said for the use of the handwritten note in business and personal communication in our world where cold digital communication (email & texting) and obsession with looking at a smartphone has too often replaced even simple eye contact between people - indeed whole books have been written on the subject (e.g. Business Notes by Florence Isaacs and The Art of the Handwritten Note by Margaret Shepard). Of course writing such a note, on nice notepaper, is better done with a fountain pen for its smoothly-writing properties.

 

In short use your fountain pens any darn time you darn well please without thought for what others think. There is no reason to bow to convention. Enjoy your pens while you're also stopping to smell the roses, enjoying a sunset, or a walk through the autumn leaves.

[MRose]

Since a very young age I was taught that legal documents were to be signed black or blue, ball pen or Fountain Pens were allowed in any situation. In the business world very rare you will find someone using a fountain pen unless they had a higher position, clerks, lawyers and politics were the ones who would flash a Fountain Pen and everyone was like "oooooooh....".

 

I think now a days things have change so much in our so called society that Fountain Pens and inks are so affordable that people are skeptical when you take one out and signed with it or write a note, what ever the situation is. The look on their face is like they have never seen a fountain pen before at least in my case, either because they are ignorant about fountain pens or because they have no clue what Archival Inks are. Needles to say, very rare you will find some one with cursive handwriting I have to emphasize that is SUPER rare.

 

A couple a days ago I went to sign some legal documents, I was given a regular pen with black ink and with out asking for permission (which I really think I don't have to) I've just took out my Fountain Pen filled with Bullet Proof Black and signed, the person that gave me the documents said: "What a beautiful pen, can I have it?" I've just smile and thought that I would send her a Fountain Pen as a gift very soon.

 

At work I deal with all sorts of clients, so I have one regular pen for clients a sharpie and my fountain pen are only for my personal use. Some people get angry cause I don't let them use my fountain pen or my sharpie, just because they are curious or they just want to use it period, but that is another different ball game. Besides that I don't feel that I presume of my preference on the type of pen I use, I just think people have no idea of things that in the old days were so common to use. Besides that, I feel that I've been blessed on knowing how to write in cursive, on knowing how to use a type writer back in the days and to know how wonderful it is to use a Fountain Pen.

[Monophoto]

This is an ongoing discussion, and the thing that make is somewhat ridiculous is that we have so many situations today in which legal documents are signed electronically (ie, you type your name into a field on web site, and the typed name is treated as a binding signature). If that's acceptable, then I can't understand why a signature made with a fountain pen is not.

 

When we bought our present home 14 years ago, I signed the documents using a Montblanc loaded with a custom blend of MB black and burgundy (to create a warmish, reddish black). The seller got his money - that's all he cared about.

 

Sometimes, these positions are based on permanence. But as we all know, there are FP inks that are far more permanent than ball point or gel inks. And sometimes they are based on the concern that it must be possible to identify that a document is original, and that is easier to do if the signature is in color. Of course, that doesn't allow for the possibility of color copiers.

 

In my opinion, there are 'house rules' - ie, traditions that have been handed down through several generations of people to the point where they are believed to be absolutely sacred today even though there is no logical basis for following them.

[Tasmith]

 

There is also a lot to be said for the use of the handwritten note in business and personal communication in indeed whole books have been written on the subject (e.g. Business Notes by Florence Isaacs and The Art of the Handwritten Note by Margaret Shepard). Of course writing such a note, on nice notepaper, is better done with a fountain pen for its smoothly-writing properties.

 

I have Margaret Shepard's The Art of the Handwritten Note. Excellent book and has really helped my when writing condolence and thank you cards. I will have to look into Business Notes by Florence Issacs as one of the main reasons I got into fountain pens and improving my hand writing was to send clients hand written thank you notes.