Extrafine 149S

[tommym]

Jsph- why all the angst? Why not buy the pen you want with an M or F and have it ground just how you want it? Buy the starting pen cheap enough and spend another $40ish to get the nib set up with the stroke characteristics you want and the flow rate you want. Unless you enjoy the hunt then happy hunting.

That's the conclusion that I've come to when it comes to hunting down EF nibs. All my MB's have had to have their nibs / flow rates adjusted in any case.

 

 

Tommy

[max dog]

A round EF point is so boring. I much prefer the way montblanc does their EFs.

I read someone in another thread mention Faber castell EF steel nibs also demonstrates a subtle architect nib character.

[Tom Kellie]

A round EF point is so boring. I much prefer the way montblanc does their EFs.

 

 

~ The many Montblanc EF nibs I've owned have all been outstanding.

The feedback from the paper surface through the EF nibs has made using them a pleasant experience.

I use Montblanc EF nibs daily, both for notes and for fine accent marks in sketches.

The ink flow is immediate and smooth. From my standpoint, Montblanc EF nibs are ideal.

Tom K.

[jsph]

jagwap: i had never heard of the artfineliner. that looks really really neat. ... and, unfortunately, _not_ impossibly expensive, so now i've got that on my mind in some hazy distant-future way.

 

zaddick: getting a fine or medium and having it ground down to an xf or xxf is definitely one way to go, but, practically, there are some strikes against it for me specifically. first, because i'm in canada, and the two or three main nib guys are in the states (i guess i'm thinking masuyama, minuskin, binder, especially if it's something really special like a 149 and not a budget pilot or whatever), and what that means is that it will be buttloads more expensive than you're thinking just from the registered shipping back and forth plus the repeated risk of paying duty on the pen, which at this point i would almost certainly be getting in the first place from the states or maybe europe. so that "shipping kills the deal" really applies when you're flying a $400+ pen back and forth across the border. ... and this whole thing from the beginning is tightly constrained by my crappy little budget for this thing: i can get a 149 if i can squeeze it into the ~ $350 to $425 range, total, not $350 to $425 plus $40* plus multiple shipping all over. it's just a practical money thing in that sense. and related to that, second, i'm not finding that the pen i'm looking for can be found _cheap_ if it's fine or medium, it's just as expensive if not more so because more people will be happy with a fine/medium and are competing on ebay, etc. just yesterday a fairly good one (with a busted clip and totally uncommunicative seller) went for a screaming $280 just an hour or two after it was re-listed (down from $330) but i missed it, but i mention it because it's the counter-example; unless there are things wrong with it that will _also_ require repair and restoration (stuck piston, cracks, screwed up clip, chips, etc) the prices aren't cheap enough (for me, it's my own limited budget that's the problem) to handle the purchase plus customization -- or at least, so far, the last many weeks, i haven't found a bargain one that fit all the criteria (solid ebonite, plastic threads, one-piece body, 14c two-tone / 18c three-tone, etc) and still was cheap enough to allow me to get a fine/medium and have money left over for trips to a nibmeister and back. ... but:

 

tommym: that's for the comment about having gotten so much nib-/feed-/flow- work done, partly because it points out the obvious importance of flow as well, which is a big thing i wouldn't be able to adjust myself in a 149, as much as i futz around with flow on super cheapie pens/nibs, because then it suggests i shouldn't be too optimistic even if i find an extra-fine: i'll probably still need to allow for some further $ to pay someone to get it to write ok for me. slightly makes my head ache a bit, partly cuz of how many weeks i've been looking now (after years of not really looking, just day-dreaming) just for the pen itself, never mind the extra work it'll probably need once it arrives. hm...

 

tom k: that's great to hear, though -- that as a general statement the montblanc efs are so good. can you say if these have been stock 149 nibs in modern pens, or stock 149 nibs in certain vintages of pens, or both, or neither?

[awl1688]

 

 

 

~ The many Montblanc EF nibs I've owned have all been outstanding.

The feedback from the paper surface through the EF nibs has made using them a pleasant experience.

I use Montblanc EF nibs daily, both for notes and for fine accent marks in sketches.

The ink flow is immediate and smooth. From my standpoint, Montblanc EF nibs are ideal.

Tom K.

I absolutely enjoy the 146 EF that I have. It's so much nicer than the StarWalker F. YMMV

[Tom Kellie]

tom k: that's great to hear, though -- that as a general statement the montblanc efs are so good. can you say if these have been stock 149 nibs in modern pens, or stock 149 nibs in certain vintages of pens, or both, or neither?

 

 

~ jsph:

 

In the sense that EF nibs are a standard nib exchange option, yes, they're stock items.

However, they're seldom available off the shelf on a 149 in all but the largest, most comprehensive boutiques or authorized resellers.

In the past five years only once was there an EF in a boutique — a 90th Anniversary 149 — which I promptly purchased and use to this day.

The other EF nibs I've acquired and continue to use with pleasure have all been nib exchanges from either M or F nibs.

It bears noting that in my experience there's a noticeable difference between a 149 F and a 149 EF nib, with the EF writing more crisply with sharp, clear strokes.

As to older vintages, I'm too green of a newbie t reply, but there are a number of experienced FPN members who might know.

In any case, I strongly recommend 149 EF fountain pens, as they're great fun to use on all types of paper or forms, as well as in book margins.

Tom K.

[zaddick]

Jsph - the seller may be willing to ship the pen to a nib meister directly and they can ship it back to you. Bindr no longer does nibs outside shows, but there are plenty of other folks who could do the job other than Masuyama and Minuskin or Mottishaw. I bet it would be easy to do that if you bought a pen from someone in the US from a place like FPN. Just another idea to consider.

[Tom Kellie]

[jsph]

thank you both, tom k and zaddick.

 

tom: it's good to hear you say that about the fine vs extra-fine difference, because it my weaker moments i try to tell myself to just go with a fine (and, worse, maybe just myself write bigger/differently, or not use the 149 for my serious/small note-taking and so on), but i really do know and need to remember that there's a noticeable difference between the two. really, you can just see it in the nib, visually; for instance, there were some great minuskin photos one, really up close, and he had to write repeatedly that it was not a custom extra-fine, it really was a factory nib that was so much finer than the usual fine.

 

zaddick: thanks, and i have thought about that -- i.e., saving at least one leg of the shipping by having the seller send the pen directly to get the nib / flow worked on. that could work in some circumstances, but in other cases not, for instance if i do end up resorting to ebay and needing to receive the pen to check it, make sure it's ok, see if it has other problems, see if it's worth keeping and putting more money into versus not. ... and i guess to some extent i would be suffering from another thing, which is to want to receive the pen in its original state and see how the original nib and feed works, kindof as a historical thing, given that this pen will have been living its life for >40 years and i'd wonder what it's like and what aspects of its character might even be charming to keep. anyway, i don't know, but of course if the situation worked out -- a reliable seller with a good pen at an extra-cheap price, just needing the nib made into an extra-fine -- then, yes, i could skip a step in terms of shipping.

 

it's funny, i keep forgetting mottishaw. i think it's got to be all the Ms. minuskin, masuyama, and then -- more Ms?!, yes, you forgot mottishaw; right, yes, i did. you know, that reminds me of the other annoying thing is, after over a decade in boston, where i could yearly go to the new england pen show in person -- and where... no, for now i'll skip the crazy story that actually started off my finding the 149 as my grail pen -- and try out lots of pens, see nibmeisters in person, not worry about shipping and defective pens and shady sellers and so on. ... but i had virtually no money then, was just buying, like, crusty old esterbrooks for $5 a pop. suddenly, an unexpected holiday bonus (sortof) after 15 years and now i've got the 149 fever for reals.

[jsph]

HOLY (bleep)!! TOM!! that is wild!! thank you so much!! that is the coolest thing i... dude, that was one classy post. i'm saving that one right now. what a smile-inducer. thank you, sir.

[max dog]

 

 

~ The many Montblanc EF nibs I've owned have all been outstanding.

The feedback from the paper surface through the EF nibs has made using them a pleasant experience.

I use Montblanc EF nibs daily, both for notes and for fine accent marks in sketches.

The ink flow is immediate and smooth. From my standpoint, Montblanc EF nibs are ideal.

Tom K.

Yes, they have a lot of character indeed.

 

With MB EF, I find the lower the angle of the pen relative to the paper, the more pronounced the line width difference becomes between the vertical (finer) and horizontal (broader) strokes. Higher the angle (the more vertically you hold the pen up), the line variation becomes less pronounced and finer the line overall. Just an interesting tidbit with the Montblanc EF nibs.

Edited January 14, 2017 by max dog

[RocketRyan]

I think EF nibs are a bit more of a risk generally. Most people start low end so likely their first extra fine would be a toothy nightmare (mine was) where as a broad is likely to be smoother, so when the time comes to buy a more expensive pen the larger nibs are safer and possibly more familiar to the user.

[jsph]

max dog: interesting observation, and i find that exact same thing with, of all things, a cheapie lamy safari xf nib i have that's got some (probably unintended) hebrew/arabic/architect character -- when the body is at a flatter angle to the paper, the line variation is much more pronounced, and it's interesting to think what the micro shape of that tip is, that results in that effect. it's certainly not symmetric in the, i guess, longitudinal axis.

 

rocketryan: i think you're totally right, and probably right across the board for most pens/manufacturers as you get into the extra-fine range. it would take very little to make a tiny point like that just wrong enough to be a problem. i think it's also been said that when you have much more flow, that wetness can mask small problems / scratchiness with the nib, so if you get so much more ink flow with a bold versus an extra-fine, it's that much more... "lubrication" that also helps them write on that layer of liquid and feel a lot smoother. of course, they probably are smoother and have much more surface area to skate on the paper.

[max dog]

 

this was a lament by someone, i think i remember, because they were saying it's a cheap / lazy way to make an extra fine, rather than having a different taper to the whole nib's nose and/or having a different size/amount of tipping material that would from the beginning and naturally be an extra-fine / smaller than the fine they intend to produce -- which is a very good point, cuz just look at, e.g., a pilot medium versus fine versus extra-fine and you'll see the whole nib is different, not just the very tip, and so a pilot extra-fine really does not have any architect flavour to it -- and that if you make extra-fines this way, it's not so legit, it's lazy. ...

I don't really buy that about it being a cheap/lazy way of making an extra fine tip. On the other end of the scale, MB, nibs are slightly stubbish in the broad and double broad and up. (Lamy 2000 too). Does that mean it is a cheap/lazy way to make broad points too? I think it is more intentional to add a little character to the nib than to completely grind the point round which is easy to do.

Edited January 14, 2017 by max dog

[tommym]

I for one do prefer a non-flex EF nib that produces the same width up and down and side to side, and one that has a bit of feedback / scratchiness to it when I write. Old school, Old paper I guess. Typically, I need to send the nib out for adjustment / modification to get it right, as even the type of ink that you use can affect the flow / feedback / scratchiness of the nib. That being said, I do appreciate what flex and semi-flex nibs are capable of producing. It's just not for me and my level of penmanship. At least, not right now.

 

Tommy

[jmccarty3]

Years ago I had a Waterman L'Etalon EF that had the architect's nib properties. I loved that nib, but unfortunately it was damaged, and was never the same after it was repaired. I have tried many other EF L'Etalon nibs, but none were like the first one. My 149 EF, which is almost an EEF, does not demonstrate any architect's properties. I am tempted to see if one of our nibmeister friends could do an architect's regrind on my 149 medium nib, which I hardly ever use (my 149 F is almost like a medium).

[jsph]

jmccarty3: well, i've definitely seen that the architect//hebrew/arabic is as a special option you can specify with mottishaw, masuyama, etc for just a few dollars more. it's a matter of grinding an oval, really, rather than symmetrically.

 

hearing about a 149 with an extra-fine nib that's actually closer to an extra-extra-fine makes my spine do that tingly thing. i wish i could find something like that. so far, not much in the way of bites from the wanted ad. it looks like it's more likely i would have to just pay separately to get it done as a custom job, if/when i find a good pen to start with.

 

tommym: part of your comments reminds me of pilot's PO "posting" nib, rigid and super fine.

[jsph]

jmccarty3: come to think of it, i'm curious and should ask: is yours a regular stock extra-fine nib that's so fine, or was it ground down to that point? ... and is it a modern nib or a particular vintage/style, like a long-tines 1960/1970s or more shovel-shaped 1950s or triangular french style or...? (don't suppose you have any pictures...

[max dog]

Years ago I had a Waterman L'Etalon EF that had the architect's nib properties. I loved that nib, but unfortunately it was damaged, and was never the same after it was repaired. I have tried many other EF L'Etalon nibs, but none were like the first one. My 149 EF, which is almost an EEF, does not demonstrate any architect's properties. I am tempted to see if one of our nibmeister friends could do an architect's regrind on my 149 medium nib, which I hardly ever use (my 149 F is almost like a medium).

I know what you mean. My first Montblanc was a 145 with stock EF nib, and it had a very nice architect character. The downstroke was a crisp EF line, and as you move the nib horizontally there was just a slight widening of the line to reveal shading and brilliance of the ink. That set the bar for me for extra fine nibs, and I could never settle for a round EF unless it has a little flex to go with it. I loved that nib too, but after I got my 146s, I gave that 145 to a friend. My subsequent Montblanc EFs, while still having some architect character is more subtle. I miss that first 145 EF nib. Here is a thread to that pen if anyone is interested

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/239583-montblanc-ef-nib/

 

An architect regrind by a nibmeister on my new Sheaffer Legacy Heritage M nib sounds tempting.

Edited January 15, 2017 by max dog

[Tom Kellie]

hearing about a 149 with an extra-fine nib that's actually closer to an extra-extra-fine makes my spine do that tingly thing. i wish i could find something like that. so far, not much in the way of bites from the wanted ad. it looks like it's more likely i would have to just pay separately to get it done as a custom job, if/when i find a good pen to start with.

 

 

Platinum Mozart EF

Platinum Mozart EF Underside