What Kind Of Pen In 19Th Century?

December 9, 2016

I am a huge fan of the 19th century literature. This extends to the penmanship of its authors. Here I have attached a photo of Louis Riel's handwriting, a Metis leader in Manitoba, Canada. This below is something off the net which might be his or in the same style.

http://www.canada.com/news/cms/binary/7561676.jpg?size=620x400s

Also, Kierkegaard's:

And again (hard to see):

What types of pens were used in the making of these? I am guessing some type of dip pen with some flex but I am totally newbish in this regard.

I was looking at flex zebra G dip pen nibs yesterday and I was wondering if they were the cheap way to go to emulate this sort of writing. Or any kind of pen like a Lamy 2000 could do this...

Thank you!

Edited December 9, 2016 by MuddyWaters

December 9, 2016

The earliest writing would have been done with a quil, the later with a steel pen attatched to a pen holder. All would have been dipped. The ink might have been iron gall ink. The cheapest way to replicate this style of writing would be with a dip pen and calligraphers ink. Most art supply stores will carry the items you would need at modest prices, unless you start to like more than one color of ink and decide to try different steel pens (nibs) and you start to buy extra pen holders so that you don't have to change pens (nibs).

December 9, 2016

Did some searching on this website and the supplies are so cheap that I bought a few nibs, a holder and an ink bottle. I will try this out! Thanks for the info.

Edited December 9, 2016 by MuddyWaters

December 9, 2016

Welcome to a wonderful new world! As Parker51 says, these documents were almost certainly written with a steel dip pen or, if they are early 19th-century, a quill pen. Modern flexible dip pens and a holder will allow you to do the same sort of writing. I'd just add a few notes:

Do start out with dip-pen (calligraphers') ink--it works much better with most dip pens because it coats them properly.

Make sure you clean the pen correctly before first use--steel pens are coated with an anti-rust oil that makes them unusable until it is removed.

Most pens like the Zebra G are so sharp that they will actually puncture the paper (or catch and throw ink all over the place) if you press on them during an upward stroke. You may only apply pressure on downward strokes, when the pressure spreads out the tines rather than pushing the point into the paper. Unless you are used to it, at first you won't even realize you are putting pressure on the pen until it catches--it takes a while to learn how zero--zero--pressure feels.

Remember that those early documents were probably written by adults who learned dip pens in primary school under a penmanship teacher and had been writing letters every day for their entire adult lives. So be patient with yourself.

Wipe the pen off when you are through writing. Pens rust, and ink can dry out or even attack the pen. So each pen will last longer if you care for it.

And by all means enjoy, and keep us informed of your adventure!

ron

December 10, 2016

I got the following:

Higgins Eternal ink,

Speedball plastic Holder,

Round Double Wooden Penholder,

Hiro 41 Nib x1,

Zebra Comic G Nib x1,

Nikko G Pointed Nib x1

They were fairly cheap each and I followed the suggestions of a clear post that a member put up a few years ago. If I like this kind of writing I will invest in more expensive stuff but for now I'll try with this.

Thanks for the heads up Ron on the Zebra nib. I'll see what I can do with the others first then. I hope I won't have to refill every two letters!

December 11, 2016

Two more questions:

1) What type of handwriting is this? Is this one of Spencerian or Copperplate?

2) Why don't modern fountain pens use steel nibs with the same flex as dip pens? Is it because the feeds can't keep up? Why wouldn't they make feeds that can keep up though?

December 12, 2016

Two more questions:

1) What type of handwriting is this? Is this one of Spencerian or Copperplate?

2) Why don't modern fountain pens use steel nibs with the same flex as dip pens? Is it because the feeds can't keep up? Why wouldn't they make feeds that can keep up though?

The flexible steel dip pens had a very short life and were considered as regular replacement items.

Today, there is simply no major market for flexible nib pens.

January 6, 2017

The flexible steel dip pens had a very short life and were considered as regular replacement items.

Today, there is simply no major market for flexible nib pens.

Correct. The market still exists though, even though it's small. A couple years ago Brause changed their production of the "Rose" nib to a different kind, which is not half as good. Original unused rose nibs are worth a lot now.

To reply to the OP: try a dip pen with some flexible calligraphy nibs. Dip pens and dip nibs are far cheaper than fountain pens. You can get a very good oblique nib holder for $30 and some modern calligraphy nibs for a few dollars each. Then there are the vintage calligraphy nibs which are out of production. These nibs are hoarded by (professional) calligraphers and can sell for hundreds of dollars for a packet of 6!

January 7, 2017

Here is a link to a very pretty EastVita X450 Chinese fountain pen with a flex nib.

It set me back only $5, and has a very smooth nib, tho I haven't inked it yet.

February 23, 2017

I don't claim to be a paleography expert, but from what I've seen, I would say all of those examples you have, with the very slight possibility of Kierkegaard's envelope, were written with a quill. Steel pens became readily available only in the early 1840's. Quills were still in fairly wide use through much of the first 3/4 of the 19th century. In 1895 I read an article that talks about the still wide-spread use of quills in the British government offices.

Someone like Riel, who was not in a major metropolitan area, would most likely have had more ready access to quills, goose turkey or buzzard, than to manufactured steel pens. Kierkegaard's later work could have been written with a steel pen, but not his earliest. He could have used a gold pen, they were around earlier than steel nibs, but were quite expensive.

If you want to recreate these hands, I would suggest a fine stub dip nib rather than the flexible pointed ones. Something like the Esterbrook 239 Chancellor or 312 Judge's Quill imitate both the modulation in line as well as the smoothness of writing of a quill pen. Most quill pens were not flexible until they started to soften with the ink, and that was a sign they were ready to be "mended" or re-trimmed.

As for the writing style, You have several up there. The Riel quote, and the two at the bottom, fall neither into formal Roundhand nor Copperplate, but is based on one of the standard hands taught in schools. You'll notice that it's not completely joined, nor completely separate. Some letters are joined together, and others aren't. It's actually not terribly easy to copy since the rules are different than any hands taught today, if the writer even follows any rules.

The Kierkegaard letter is in a continental style similar to Roundhand but with some differences, and obviously the great thinker's own quirks.

if you try and copy the Riel quote, you can see that the pen had a slightly wide nib, like a stub, and the line of the stub was held parallel to the line of the paper, rather than at a 45-degree angle like you do with italic writing. You could try and imitate it with a very fine stub fountain pen, but you won't get the really nice thin lines with a tipped nib. While the style is not the same, here's a photo I uploaded some time ago where I'm writing parallel to the line of writing with a medium dip stub. If you look closely you can see where the lines up and down are thicker while the lines left and write are thinner, with variations.

Thanks for sharing!