Asian characters

[Reisho]

Hello everyone,

 

Here is what you can read about the zoom nib on the nibs.com site:

 

"The Sailor fountain pen with a zoom nib takes the place of a brush."

 

So I wondered if anyone here had experience, and knew how to write Chinese or Japanese characters with a zoom nib.

I do not expect the pen to have the feel of a brush, of course. But would it be possible to get a result a bit closer to that of a brush than with a regular nib (with some training)?

I'd be willing to make the effort if someone could tell me it were indeed possible.

 

I need opinions before I decide to acquire one

 

 

Thanks for your answers,

 

 

Regards,

Reisho

[Taki]

Itried a Zoom nib in a store, and my experience is very limited but it just felt like a very broad nib. For me it probably takes a lot of practice to make my Kanjis look nice with a Zoom nib. Also I would have to write characters really big, which is a bit impractical. I would recommend trying it in person if possible.

Edited May 9, 2007 by Taki

[exit here]

I have not used one but when first looking at FP's for Chinese I thought the Zoom a necessity but discovered that it is more like an upturned caligraphy pen that delivers line variation but only at the adjustment of pen angle. The upward curve supplies a medium to broad interface, then rotating the nib 180degrees puts the upturned nip point in contact with the paper and thus a fine point. The users I suspect are more Japanese than Chinese ...and the scripts more stylised than those that this poor 'blue eyes' can manage.

 

For the fine detail of some characters it becomes obvious why asian pens are preferred in a Fine or EF and are finer than an american or European nib. I cannot imagine that a zoom nib could substitute for a brush, except of course in the instance of a pen-master.

I would think that a person with brush skills could further train and accomplish skills with the zoom but they would only do it for the differences and not for the similarities. I would not expect that a brush artist would begin with a pen but who knows (not me!)

 

There is an alternative, a Weasel hair brush pen that uses cartridges and would permit you to use even Noodlers.

 

 

There are a number of different manufacturers ... I think one is called a Sakura PIGMA Brush www.gellyroll.com (there is a video of the pen brush being used) but the pic I show here I think is a weasel hair brush in a FP body and cap made by Pilot...there is one by Pentel and another called a Kuretake Brush Pen www.dickblick.com ..another but a bit different by Tombow can be seen at www.chookscraps.com.au.

 

My own solution was a Namiki Falcon, that whilst not a brush, has a nib that supplies a line variation that is very pleasing and gives an art quality to my characters. I will be posting character samples soon as I am waiting on a Nakaya elastic flexible which is a result of my experience with the Falcon ...I was a disposable pen user only 10 or so weeks ago ...now I have a collection of pens that is worth more than my car!!

Edited May 9, 2007 by exit here

[Margana]

I've tried several and found the Uranus Multifunction Pen at HisNibs.com to be excellent.

[Reisho]

:blink: Thanks for your answers.

 

I already possess a few brushes (the Sakura, the Pentel, as well as "real brushes"). I will definitely try to get a hand on the others, especially the Uranus and the Pilot

 

But that's a bit beside the point of my current issue. I mostly write texts that are part asian, part western, and I have no alternative but to switch between a brush and a pen (not very efficient, and not that pretty either) or "sacrifice" the asian characters and write everything with the same pen, one that is not suited for asian writing.

 

Most opinions seem to concur, though: the zoom nib isn't that interesting. Even, it sounds like only people enjoying really broad nibs appreciate them - but then why not buy an OB nib?

It seems like this zoom nib somehow misses the point (pun semi-intended). Is there really a market for such nibs, at least in Japan?

 

I haven't received my Fermo (F), but I kind of guess it will make my characters clear and readable, and I want more

 

My best option might then be the Falcon. I've visited the Nakaya website and their pen look like

...stuff I'm going to dream about until the end of my life. I am not rich enough for such beauties.

 

Just another question...

While frantically jumping from website to website, I came across the Hero Calligraphy pens (M69, M72, M86) which are also advertised as brush-like. Does anyone have any experience with these nibs?

 

 

Thank you,

 

Best regards,

 

Reisho

Edited May 10, 2007 by Reisho

[Taki]

I think some fountain pen collectors/users in Japan like using big Naginata-togi nib or Zoom nib etc. to write big. But thin F or XF nibs are more practical for everyday Japanese handwriting, IMHO.

 

Are you used to writing with brush? To me it's not difficult to write Japanese characters with regular pens, probably because I grew up using pencils more than brushes.

 

But I can understand your frustrstion if you have written only with brush as writing with brush is very different from other writing utencils. Also I write in Kaishu most of the time. If you write Xingshu or something more connected brush is probably easier.

 

Just curious which Asian chareacters do you write? I've been assuming you are talking about Chinese characters, but that may not be the case.

[Dr.Grace]

  exit here said:

There is an alternative, a Weasel hair brush pen that uses cartridges and would permit you to use even Noodlers.

 

 

There are a number of different manufacturers ... I think one is called a Sakura PIGMA Brush www.gellyroll.com (there is a video of the pen brush being used) but the pic I show here I think is a weasel hair brush in a FP body and cap made by Pilot..

 

 

Do you know where we could buy the Pilot weasel hair brush pen? Sounds interesting. I have a Pilot pen that has a plastic pseudo-brush that works reasonably well and fills with ink from a bottle, like an eyedropper pen. But it's not as good as a real brush.

 

[exit here]

 

Correction ...Platinum not pilot

 

The link is ...

 

nomado1230.net

is Japanese so load up babal fish for the site translation

 

Apologies but you will need to search the site ..there is a product (new) called the carbon writing brush ....but the picture of the weasel brush nib was on a page with many proper bodied brush pens .... If you cannot locate it let me know and I will see if I can find it again.

 

 

[Dr.Grace]

I found something called the "Carbon new writing brush soft writing brush writing brush pen PTCF2000", but there's no indication of having real hair, and the tip looks white (See picture below). You're sure this is the weasel hair pen?

 

I did find a Yasutomo pen called Kaimei that has weasel hair. It's pretty expensive (about $60.)

Edited May 11, 2007 by Dr.Grace

[TrevorML]

  Dr.Grace said:

I found something called the "Carbon new writing brush soft writing brush writing brush pen PTCF2000", but there's no indication of having real hair, and the tip looks white (See picture below). You're sure this is the weasel hair pen?

 

I did find a Yasutomo pen called Kaimei that has weasel hair. It's pretty expensive (about $60.)

 

 

DrG... do you have a link for the Yasutomo pen as I am trying to source a pen for a children's book illustrator friend who works in watercolour and would like to use fountain pens but they are out of the question by all accounts as they will most definitely seize up...

 

cheers and thanks

Trevor

[Reisho]

  Dr.Grace said:

I found something called the "Carbon new writing brush soft writing brush writing brush pen PTCF2000", but there's no indication of having real hair, and the tip looks white (See picture below). You're sure this is the weasel hair pen?

 

I should think that this white tip is made of nylon fibres.

 

Here is the Pentel brush pen (nylon):

[Dr.Grace]

  TrevorML said:

  Dr.Grace said:

I found something called the "Carbon new writing brush soft writing brush writing brush pen PTCF2000", but there's no indication of having real hair, and the tip looks white (See picture below). You're sure this is the weasel hair pen?

 

I did find a Yasutomo pen called Kaimei that has weasel hair. It's pretty expensive (about $60.)

 

 

DrG... do you have a link for the Yasutomo pen as I am trying to source a pen for a children's book illustrator friend who works in watercolour and would like to use fountain pens but they are out of the question by all accounts as they will most definitely seize up...

 

cheers and thanks

Trevor

 

This is the cheapest site I found: Yasutomo Kaimei pen

 

The main problem is that it uses cartridges, which only seem to come in black. Maybe you could refill them with the ink of your choice?

Edited May 11, 2007 by Dr.Grace

[Dr.Grace]

There's also a Keimei pen with a long barrel that's cheaper:

 

Long barrel Kaimei on Yasutomo site

[Reisho]

  Taki said:

I think some fountain pen collectors/users in Japan like using big Naginata-togi nib or Zoom nib etc. to write big. But thin F or XF nibs are more practical for everyday Japanese handwriting, IMHO.

 

Are you used to writing with brush? To me it's not difficult to write Japanese characters with regular pens, probably because I grew up using pencils more than brushes.

 

But I can understand your frustrstion if you have written only with brush as writing with brush is very different from other writing utencils. Also I write in Kaishu most of the time. If you write Xingshu or something more connected brush is probably easier.

 

Just curious which Asian chareacters do you write? I've been assuming you are talking about Chinese characters, but that may not be the case.

 

Hello Taki,

 

Just like you I grew up with pens and pencils. I seriously started with Asian characters quite late in my mid-twenties (after several failed attempts as a teen).

Of course, I was taught kaisho first. But when I began to learn how to read old cursive, I totally mistrusted the teachers' motto: "you don't need to learn how to write them to know how to read them".

 

Maybe it was possible, yes. But it was boring.

How is it possible to browse through one of those gorgeous cursive dictionaries without trying to reproduce those marvellous characters?

 

At that point, it doesn't take long to understand brush is the way to go.

Yet... now I feel like using these cursives in my notes also. And switching from pen to brush has not prove very satisfactory. It takes a long time, and I don't like the result. (Maybe I shouldn't consider so strongly the aesthetics in my notes... but I do.)

 

So, I'm looking for a nib that would give better results than just any F or XF nib.

I thought of the Zoom, but after reading your comments, I'll go for the Falcon first.

 

To answer your question, I mostly read and write texts written in Japan but without kana. So graphically, I guess you could call it Chinese, but I have no clue about modern Chinese syntax or pronunciation.

 

 

Regards,

Reisho

[exit here]

No... the weasel hair is not the Carbon ...I will find them soon ...in the meantime the bay has a Sailor and cheap$$$ ... you could refill cartridges with a syringe.

 

Sailor brush on the bay

 

and a pic of it ....

 

[Taki]

Reisho, so do you study Kanbun? I tried to take Komonjyo gaku when I was in university but after the first lecture I dropped the class It was not required for my major and seemed too difficult.

 

As for writing tools probably Dr. Grace (did you see his web page? Beautiful writing and drawings!) and others can give you better advice as my handwriting is not very good and I haven't picked up a brush for more than a decade. I've never tried Falcon but am curious how it writes Japanese or kanji, too.

Edited May 12, 2007 by Taki

[Renzhe]

That Sailor Profit has caught my interest, but it's still too expensive in my book. (It looks too fat to hold like a brush anyway.) It would be nice to have something like this that takes cartridges...for less than $10.

 

And, those "brushes" that just have soft felt at the tip instead of true bristles aren't worth considering. They're nothing like a brush.

[Reisho]

  Taki said:

Reisho, so do you study Kanbun? I tried to take Komonjyo gaku when I was in university but after the first lecture I dropped the class It was not required for my major and seemed too difficult.

 

That brings back memories. At the komonjo class, I was the only student left after the second month. The teacher hoped that I too would eventually surrender and stop coming, so that he wouldn't have to come to the campus just for me. He kept saying stuff like "you know, if you feel, sick, you don't HAVE TO come" or "don"t hesitate to give me a call in case you wouldn't be able to attend one of these days".

But I was an addict and kept coming, even when I had caught a cold and was burning with fever. Poor guy.

I don't study only kanbun, I have to face all kinds of texts. But I've been talking only about that here since I know nothing about kana calligraphy, and writing them with a regular pen hasn't caused me so much frustration (so far!)

 

Thanks for drawing my attention to Dr Grace's web page. The calligraphies are magnificent. Really.

One thing I haven't tried yet is very large brushes.

So many things to explore. Such a short life.

 

Once I get my hands on a Falcon at a decent price (especially as I unexpectedly just ordered a Krone :bonk: ) I'll post some samples, if noone hasn't in the meantime.

 

 

Regards,

Reisho

[Dr.Grace]

  Taki said:

...Dr. Grace (did you see his web page? Beautiful writing and drawings!)

 

 

  Reisho said:

  Taki said:

 

Thanks for drawing my attention to Dr Grace's web page. The calligraphies are magnificent. Really.

One thing I haven't tried yet is very large brushes.

So many things to explore. Such a short life.

 

Thank you both for the kind words!

 

I actually know only a few characters, but somehow I have an affinity for this kind of calligraphy. It can be quite therapeutic. If you can find a good teacher, by all means try it sometime!

 

Don

[Kay]

Where's this web page? I want to see it! Can you put a link or address here?

thanks,

Kay