Feeds-Simple And Complex

[Pen Engineer]

what did we say last about feeds?

Are they simple or complicated?

[Bo Bo Olson]

A lot more complicated than I thought. Especially the work it took to make modern plastic do ink as well as ebonite. That was a surprise that ebonite was matched.

[Pen Engineer]

A lot more complicated than I thought. Especially the work it took to make modern plastic do ink as well as ebonite. That was a surprise that ebonite was matched.

Ebonite behaves as it does because the machining leaves microscopically small rips and cracks on the surface. I would bet if one would use a different machining method, like laser cutting, ebonite's ink relationship would change significantly dramatically.

 

As a matter of fact, I would suggest, any material that would leave similar rips and cracks after machining would be as good as ebonite. Did some experiments with machining ABS and got good results.

 

One, I, actually wonder why they still machine (with chisels) ebonite feeds. Laser machining would be cheaper, faster and more precise. Interesting, very interesting, Watson!

Edited February 24, 2017 by PenIngeneer

[Synnove]

Per Wiki article on Ebonite:

 

"...exposure to moisture bonds water with free sulfur on the surface creating sulfates and sulfuric acid at the surface that are very hygroscopic. The sulfates condense water from the air, forming a hydrophilic film with favorable wettability characteristics on the surface."

[Pen Engineer]

Per Wiki article on Ebonite:

 

"...exposure to moisture bonds water with free sulfur on the surface creating sulfates and sulfuric acid at the surface that are very hygroscopic. The sulfates condense water from the air, forming a hydrophilic film with favorable wettability characteristics on the surface."

Thanks for your comment. It surprised me and I looked up the Wikipedia article because it would contradict my experience when experimenting with Ebonite. This was: Raw Ebonite rods did not like anything watery, only after machining did they behaved hydrophilic.

 

I copied the article from Wikipedia.

 

Under the influence of the ultraviolet portion in daylight hard rubber oxidizes and exposure to moisture bonds water with free sulfur on the surface creating sulfates and sulfuric acid at the surface that are very hygroscopic. The sulfates condense water from the air, forming a hydrophilic film with favorable wettability characteristics on the surface.

 

I highlighted the and. Could this mean that only when the two conditions are present that hygroscopy occurs? One could consider the oxidisation of rubber (it gets grey and dusty) as a "machining" process, which attacks the original surface of Ebonite.

In regards to Ebonite used for feeds, all surfaces would be machined.

Acetic acid is added to ink for the promotion of wettability.

 

All sorted?

[WillN]

Burping and volume. I've got several Nemosines that I've converted to eyedroppers, and I've also got several TWSBIs, Vacs, Ecos, Mini which also hold a lot of ink. The Nemosine eye droppers are notorious burpers like large rude babies. The TSWBIs have probably burped less than fussy old ladies at tea. Arthur C. Clarke once said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is something or other, but even I don't know why my pens keep doing that. I moved to Sri Lanka so I could wear all these pale linen suits....and now I've got these blue spots everywhere."

The Nemosine Paradox is that they hold a lot of ink, and once you've gone stub-nib and full yenta (long writing sessions) they should be perfect, but when they get half full they start burping. The way I look at it is: the ink is there if I need it, but it's better to re-fill when it gets about a third empty. A nearly empty TWSBI Mini (regular not vac) can have very wet moments. I haven't tried moving the piston down when it's getting empty. There is definitely a need for better feeds and some burp solutions.

 

I have an Indian handmade eye dropper pen that holds 3.5 ml of ink in its barrel. This amount of ink cannot be practically used. The relatively modest buffering capacity of the simple feed inhibits that.

 

The traditional 6.35 mm (0.25 in) diameter ebonite feed is about 51 mm (2 in) long.

 

The feed allows about 2 ml of ink usage without getting into ink burping trouble. The warmth of the writer’s hand heating up and hence expanding the air trapped behind the ink in the barrel during writing is the cause of ink burping. During writing a subtle increase in ink flow indicates that I need to fill up the pen.

[Bo Bo Olson]

"""Arthur C. Clarke once said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is something or other, but even I don't know why my pens keep doing that. I moved to Sri Lanka so I could wear all these pale linen suits....and now I've got these blue spots everywhere." """"

[Pen Engineer]

Burping and volume. I've got several Nemosines that I've converted to eyedroppers, and I've also got several TWSBIs, Vacs, Ecos, Mini which also hold a lot of ink. The Nemosine eye droppers are notorious burpers like large rude babies. The TSWBIs have probably burped less than fussy old ladies at tea. Arthur C. Clarke once said "Any sufficiently advanced technology is something or other, but even I don't know why my pens keep doing that. I moved to Sri Lanka so I could wear all these pale linen suits....and now I've got these blue spots everywhere."

The Nemosine Paradox is that they hold a lot of ink, and once you've gone stub-nib and full yenta (long writing sessions) they should be perfect, but when they get half full they start burping. The way I look at it is: the ink is there if I need it, but it's better to re-fill when it gets about a third empty. A nearly empty TWSBI Mini (regular not vac) can have very wet moments. I haven't tried moving the piston down when it's getting empty. There is definitely a need for better feeds and some burp solutions.

 

The feed in the foto has no fins! No way to compensate for overflow.

Increasing air volumes make a pen more susceptible to climate changes (I mean, daily, not global warming )

... and the smaller the ink tank, reservoir, the smaller the consequences. ... said Amadeus W. If you would like to read up on this, here is a starter link

Edited January 31, 2019 by Pen_Ingeneer

[minddance]

Some inks want a simpler feed. Over-engineered feeds are no good for some inks.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Inks have been long matched to feed and nib in any company making both......not that other inks don't work well with them. A Pelikan was a wet writer because of a dry ink, and a Waterman a dry writer (somewhat) because of once making the wettest ink....pre-noodler.

Herbin seems to work in all my pens. MB is middling towards dry. Lamy is also a dry ink.

I chase two toned shading inks, and they tend to be dryer...or need a regular flex nib more than the wetter semi-flex.

I don't know enough about the new modern ink companies; especially post Noodlers and only have two shading Noodler inks.

 

 

Depends I think how fast a feed has to be...how wet is a nib, if it is semi-flex it is wetter than regular flex which must be due to the bit of tine spread possible wetter than a nail or a semi-nail.

A wet ink in semi-flex could be a wrong ink.....don't know I don't knowingly chase wet inks. But that has more to do with ease of tine bend and spread, than a feed that has to keep up with a more greedy nib. I chase shading inks as said.

 

Superflex is another spotted cat. But they are not well buffered..........with nibs that were stiffer coming into modern times of the '30's.....'Over-engineered feeds' became a must, and buffering became a necessity.

Then Parker invented a super fast drying ink, and really buffered the hell out of the P-51. The ink was deadly to any but the P-51. But that is another story.

Think how ignorant we were just a generation ago, when the supersaturated Parker Pennmann inks came in and no one knew about cleaning a pen.

 

MB did a hell of a lot of work on their feeds, is one way of dating them.

 

How supersaturated is your ink? How wet? How dry? What pen (nib & feed) do you use most and why?

The subject is a bit more complicated than I thought.....hum, someone should create a spread sheet for that and pin it.

 

There is no perfect nib and feed, no perfect ink, no perfect paper....but we can find out which combinations are.....and should write them down....and where one can find the info..... :gaah:One perfect match on three sheets of paper and in at least three places I have a perfect match.....ah yes, Lost in Place.

 

And I don't write down that ink don't work well with that nib on that paper....it just gets shoved in cobweb corner....as a blaa don't buy again ink.

 

If one looks long enough, one can find a paper where Lamy Green does well. :yikes:So all things are possible. Hummm could have used different nibs...widths, flexes....but really Lamy Green didn't seem to be worth the work.

If I hung out in the ink section....I'd need such a spread sheet.

[Pen Engineer]

Talking about feeds... I am doing some calculations for my next chapter... could I ask for some info, please? It's about the dimensions of feeds. Averages, ballparks... diameter? how many slits? How wide are they and how deep? Distance between nib tip and first slit?

 

Don't worry too much about accuracy, just throw your measurements at me and I calculate the averages. Thanks for your help.

[Carrau]

Amadeus,

I did the measurements for a number of fountain pens. I’ll send them to you by PM.

Mike

[Scrawler]

Does the meniscus strength affect the spacing of fins? Some inks have more surfactants which results in weaker meniscus. If an ink with strong meniscus is used with feeds that have many fins close together, does it have a tendency to blob up? It seems to me that the correct selection of general ink characteristics goes hand in had with both material and fin spacing.

[senzen]

This page, in fact the whole site, is a mine of information and knowledge.

 

Make coffee first though, it is very thorough . . .

 

Thanks for that, I can't belive I've been reading on the physics of fountain pen on a sunday morning; I think I finally have a sense of why my Waterman Laureat didn't work: not breather hole!

[senzen]

Talking about feeds... I am doing some calculations for my next chapter... could I ask for some info, please? It's about the dimensions of feeds. Averages, ballparks... diameter? how many slits? How wide are they and how deep? Distance between nib tip and first slit?

 

Don't worry too much about accuracy, just throw your measurements at me and I calculate the averages. Thanks for your help.

 

Just wanted to thank you for your website. Here's a couple of feeds:

 

Left: Unknown brand, 39mm in length, 4.5 mm in diameter; slits: 1?

 

Right: From a Waterman Lauréat, 37mm in length, 5mm in diameter; slits: 2?

 

The Lauréat would discharge all its ink onto the cap, so I don't use it, if I understand correctly I don't see a breather hole; don't know if this makes it a candidate for a bad feed.

 

http://i67.tinypic.com/21102ag.jpg

 

http://i64.tinypic.com/f3xao5.jpg

[Pen Engineer]

absolutely. Ink and feed are matched. That's why one can expect problems when changing inks.

 

I am aware of that, At the moment I only need some measurements.

[Pen Engineer]

 

Just wanted to thank you for your website. Here's a couple of feeds:

 

Left: Unknown brand, 39mm in length, 4.5 mm in diameter; slits: 1?

 

Right: From a Waterman Lauréat, 37mm in length, 5mm in diameter; slits: 2?

 

The Lauréat would discharge all its ink onto the cap, so I don't use it, if I understand correctly I don't see a breather hole; don't know if this makes it a candidate for a bad feed.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the info and fotos. And sorry for my unclear question. I was wanting information on the overflow slits, number, width and depth. Diameters are a good start.

[senzen]

Thanks for the info and fotos. And sorry for my unclear question. I was wanting information on the overflow slits, number, width and depth. Diameters are a good start.

 

Which ones are the overflow slits??

[Pen Engineer]

the ones on the side. Not all feeds have them. By the way, love your quote!