Feeds-Simple And Complex

[Tinjapan]

I was referring to the conversation as a whole. It is pointless to bring up heat as we can do nothing about it.

[Fuellerfuehrerschein]

There is a trick to counteract ink burping in traditional eye dropper pens. The user can hold or pocket the pen nib up and preheat the pen and ink contained in its barrel. Of course this will only work within limits and might not always be practical. The relatively big channel cut into a traditional eye dropper feed doubles as air intake and ink provider during writing. I found out these simple pens and feeds work well with relatively “dry” inks like ESSRI iron gall ink.

 

 

This is how a modern Lamy feed deals with ESSRI ink. Notice how the iron gall ink starts to shade with increasing line width.

[Frank66]

  On 9/16/2016 at 3:34 PM, Pendel said:

I find the regular saw blades to be too wide, and so I use precision razor saws (like

Xacto X75300 etc.) These work very well. In fact when I make my own feeds from ebonite rods, I use these saws to cut the fins as well.

 

:-)

 

Dear Pentel, I found your input very useful, many thanks.

1. I have been experimenting with regular plastic feeds trying to increase ink flow and modify inexpensive replacement nibs in my Jinhao's x450 for flex writing, so far mostly with equivocal results. I do not have much difficulty with modifying the nib, but most difficult for me is to increase the feed's ink flow to meet the flexy ink demands.

To deepen the plastic feed grooves without widening them too much, I have resourced ultra thin separating disks, dental technician or jewelry saws with thin blades, sharp instruments like dental picks or explorers, thin disposable surgical blades, heated over flame sharp instruments, utility knife blades and rotary burs to name just a few. In all honesty, a thin blade saw is what I found most helpful for clean cuts without much debris left deep in the ink groove, thanks again for pointing us towards the Xacto X75300 precision razor saw option.

2. Could you please share how you go about making your own ebonite feeds from rods? I do not have a lathe, but I do have access to a fine Dremel-like laboratory handpiece.

3. If one of the reasons ebonite feeds are better than plastic feeds is because they have porous surface, would you think sandblasting the plastic feeds with Aluminum Oxide particles would increase their performance?

A lot of questions... Please feel free to reply if you wish, at your leisure, other people feel free to contribute too if you wish too. Thank you.

- Frank66

Edited September 20, 2016 by Frank66

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/18/2016 at 9:40 PM, praxim said:

@Peningeneer, thanks for your extensive post however I already knew that. My post you reference was to ensure that I had a fair model of what Tinjapan was saying at the time.

 

I found in my own former work that investing first in clarifying other people's [assumed] models made for faster resolution of problems, because it became both clearer and more readily agreed which models failed or were inadequate so less time was eventually wasted on pursuing pet ideas.

 

That extensive post was meant for Tinjapan.

 

.... clarifying models... yes, same here. Staying with the question and not jumping on the first idea always leads to better results. Generally, my problem was and still is sorting out all the ideas I have, evaluating them and making a choice. Unless, sometimes, it reveals itself... good old magic

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/19/2016 at 8:28 AM, Fuellerfuehrerschein said:

There is a trick to counteract ink burping in traditional eye dropper pens. The user can hold or pocket the pen nib up and preheat the pen and ink contained in its barrel. Of course this will only work within limits and might not always be practical. The relatively big channel cut into a traditional eye dropper feed doubles as air intake and ink provider during writing. I found out these simple pens and feeds work well with relatively “dry” inks like ESSRI iron gall ink.

 

 

This is how a modern Lamy feed deals with ESSRI ink. Notice how the iron gall ink starts to shade with increasing line width.

great ideas

 

wood not put iron gallus ink in a Lamy feed. wood not last long. maybe a wooden feed?

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/19/2016 at 8:39 AM, Frank66 said:

 

3. If one of the reasons ebonite feeds are better than plastic feeds is because they have porous surface, would you think sandblasting the plastic feeds with Aluminum Oxide particles would increase their performance?

Hi Frank66

 

I have written about roughing the surface of plastic feeds on my site and it may provide an answer to your question. Have fun

[Tinjapan]

Today I stopped by Muji in Yurakucho to visit with Mr. Kawakubo, ask him to fix a vintage nib for me and see if he had one of his pens available for sale. The disussions in this thread prompted me to ask about the reasons for fins being added to the feed. Without hesitation, he answered, 'To provide a place for ink to collect when it overflows.'. I then asked what causes ink to overflow. He answered, 'Agitation caused by the user's hand movements, changes in writing speed, low ink level and temperature, among other things.'.

 

Revisting my earlier comment, I stated

 

As I understand, the fins allow a place for ink to go, other than on the paper, if you set down your pen after a period of writing to grab a sip of coffee. They also provide a reservoir closer to the nib tip reducing dry starts.

And received the following response.

 

"How do you make sure that the ink goes first onto the paper and then into the fins?

 

Once you put the pen down, ink flow should stop... and generally does."

 

A very strange response, as fluid always takes the path of least resistance and the most direct. Fluids in flow do not turn on their own, something must turn them. The question is not "How do you make sure that the ink goes first onto the paper and then into the fins?" rather 'Why would ink change the direction of its flow and enter the fins instead of flowing straight down the channel and on to the paper?'. The following quote lends credence to my position.

 

"The underlying idea for the slit array is: During general use, the overflow slits are empty so that their full capacity is available in case of need. If they get filled, they will be emptied first (when writing) before ink is drawn from the tank."

 

Obviously, ink does not always flow into the fins otherwise there would be no "if they get filled". So, how do the fins get filled? I suggest the term "overflow slits" answers the question.

 

"Once you put the pen down, ink flow should stop... and generally does."

 

It's that pesky "generally does" that drove pen makers to find a better way of controlling ink flow. "generally does" just doesn't cut it. Pen users did not care if it was the movement of the writers hand or changes in demand, temperature or volumn that caused ink to blob. All they cared about was for ink to flow only when and where the user intended it to go and not to "generally" do so.

 

"fins solved the ink blobbing problem which arises from variations in temperature and pressure, not from inky inertia. I see this from experience with my own finned and finless pens."

 

Changing demand also changes pressure.

 

In the discussion up until now, three problems to be solved have been given as reasons for the fins on a feed; temperature, volumn (when the pen is full or nearly empty) and demand. In reality, the fins are to help control ink flow under varying conditions of which demand is one. As the feed can not directly address the problems of heat and volumn, the only method left is to control the flow of fluid to match demand under various operating conditions.

 

Of the three, demand is the only one the user cares about.

 

As the only solution to temperature/pressure problem is to change the temperature or pressure and the only solution to a problem of volumn being to change the volumn, things the feed can not do, the only thing left for it to do is regulate flow to match demand.

 

Thus, "As I understand, the fins allow a place for ink to go, other than on the paper, if you set down your pen after a period of writing to grab a sip of coffee. They also provide a reservoir closer to the nib tip reducing dry starts."

 

BTW, this is a situation taken from my own experiences using 100 year old fountain pens and from reading on the developement of fountain pens.

 

Other arguements presented ignore the germ, the genesis behind the changes in feed design. They start the telling of the journey to a better feed well after its beginning and ignore the purpose of the journey entirely.

 

I doubt very much that Messrs. Waterman, Conklin, Parker et al. received very many letters complaining about the unsatisfactory build up of internal pressure caused by the body heat of the user. So then, why did they tinker with their feeds? What consumer demand drove them to carve out new shapes to try out?

 

I also doubt very much that very many of the penmakers who built the foundation of feed design for you to apply modern understanding of physics to improve upon, greatly I will add, whipped out an envelope to solve the problem mathmatically. They went back to the workshop, grabbed wood, bone, ivory, hard rubber, whatever their prefered material was and started carving away. Through trial and error, progress was made. It would be later that the principles that allow it all to work would be widely known and thus could applied.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Waterman, Paul E. Wirt(@ 1900 the best fountain pen), Conklin and Parker had to keep improving...advertising claims of other companies drove them to keep up with or claim to be ahead of the Jones.

 

Fountain pens were a status symbol, even then. One needed the newest.....best fountain pen every seven years when one bought another.

A lever pen was as good if not better than pushbutton fillers....but the pushbutton was 'up to the minute' modern....therefor of higher status in they cost more, than a lever Sheaffer or Waterman.

 

I read Conklin had the best fountain pen in @ 1930....but decided falsely to save money living off their good name until times were better.....and not advertising.

They lost the war of survival to lesser pens, in they did not advertise. By the early mid '30's they were bankrupt....bought up by a cheap pen maker that made cheap pens with the name....Conklin was gone by 1940....more or less.

[Tinjapan]

Interesting points. While it would make sense that a new filling system may require a new feed, I'm not sure a new feed was required with the systems discusssed; eye dropper, Crescent, lever and button. I have ED filled pens with comb like feeds and lever fillers without comb feeds. Through not extensively read up on the subject, I have not read any contempory sources citing the need to change feed design, for these systems, to fit the filling system.

 

Nor have I read any contempory sources citing body heat as a problem to solve. I have read many modern comments that such and such design feature helped in this regard, but have not seen contemporary sources citing this as a motivation to try out new feed designs.

 

As pocket clips were an additional accessory at an additional cost in early Conklin catologs, given the seemingly larger amount of pens with pocket clips found for sale and the large number of after market clips found on pens with out their maker's clips, I have serious doubts that the heat of a writers hand was even an issue. Is there really THAT big of a temperature difference between the heat of a pen in a pocket of a shirt, vest or jacket and one in the hand?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Tinjapan

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/21/2016 at 1:23 AM, Tinjapan said:

Is there really THAT big of a temperature difference between the heat of a pen in a pocket of a shirt, vest or jacket and one in the hand?

Easy answer:

 

put a temperature probe inside the pen and measure the temperature in either condition

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/19/2016 at 5:16 AM, Tinjapan said:

I was referring to the conversation as a whole. It is pointless to bring up heat as we can do nothing about it.

... we can do something about its impact

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/20/2016 at 9:06 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Waterman, Paul E. Wirt(@ 1900 the best fountain pen), Conklin and Parker had to keep improving...advertising claims of other companies drove them to keep up with or claim to be ahead of the Jones.

 

Fountain pens were a status symbol, even then. One needed the newest.....best fountain pen every seven years when one bought another.

Certainly an important point. The company I was involved with almost lost the plot because an unwell functioning feed, even their pen's shape design was well wanted. After they had a well functioning feed sales went up and have increased ever since. You know the story.

[Tas]

  On 9/20/2016 at 8:58 AM, PenIngeneer said:

great ideas

 

wood not put iron gallus ink in a Lamy feed. wood not last long. maybe a wooden feed?

 

Nooooo !

 

I've had Akkerman's #10 in my Lamy 2K since December. No problems . . . but now you and your expert knowledge are worrying me.

 

 

[Tinjapan]

"put a temperature probe inside the pen and measure the temperature in either condition"

 

No need. Do you really think that users complained about the temp differential between carry and ready? Do you think that pen makers a century ago put a temp probe in to their pens to check the internal temps to solve their flow problems?

 

"It is pointless to bring up heat as we can do nothing about it.

 

.. we can do something about its impact"

 

Treating the symptom and not the disease. They did not treat heat, they treated the changes in flow that it affects and the changes in flow caused by, in the words of Mr. Kawakubo, 'Agitation caused by the user's hand movements, changes in writing speed, low ink level and temperature, among other things.'. They developed more complex feeds to solve flow problems.

 

Do YOU solve the flow issues caused by each of these independent of each other?

Edited September 21, 2016 by Tinjapan

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/21/2016 at 10:56 AM, Tas said:

 

Nooooo !

 

I've had Akkerman's #10 in my Lamy 2K since December. No problems . . . but now you and your expert knowledge are worrying me.

 

 

Don't fear, stay calm....

 

Fuellerfuehrerschein, just told me that there are iron gall inks designed for plastic feeds and as long as (that's what he does) the fountain pen is flushed every now and then, there seems no problemo!

 

BTW... my expertise is more in pen ingeneering and not that much in ink.

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/21/2016 at 2:10 PM, Tinjapan said:

"put a temperature probe inside the pen and measure the temperature in either condition"

 

No need. Do you really think that users complained about the temp differential between carry and ready? Do you think that pen makers a century ago put a temp probe in to their pens to check the internal temps to solve their flow problems?

 

"It is pointless to bring up heat as we can do nothing about it.

 

.. we can do something about its impact"

 

Treating the symptom and not the disease. They did not treat heat, they treated the changes in flow that it affects and the changes in flow caused by, in the words of Mr. Kawakubo, 'Agitation caused by the user's hand movements, changes in writing speed, low ink level and temperature, among other things.'. They developed more complex feeds to solve flow problems.

 

Do YOU solve the flow issues caused by each of these independent of each other?

some of them yes, some of them no

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/21/2016 at 10:56 AM, Tas said:

 

Nooooo !

 

I've had Akkerman's #10 in my Lamy 2K since December. No problems . . . but now you and your expert knowledge are worrying me.

 

 

I am learning as I am writing

 

There is a iron gall ink for fountain pens... ESSRI

 

surprise, surprise

 

(click on the green and it will take you there)

[Tas]

  On 9/22/2016 at 5:01 AM, PenIngeneer said:

Don't fear, stay calm....

 

Fuellerfuehrerschein, just told me that there are iron gall inks designed for plastic feeds and as long as (that's what he does) the fountain pen is flushed every now and then, there seems no problemo!

 

BTW... my expertise is more in pen ingeneering and not that much in ink.

 

Phew!

 

*goes to sink and flushes pen for the first time since Dec

[Tinjapan]

  On 9/22/2016 at 5:03 AM, PenIngeneer said:

some of them yes, some of them no

Do you think that the pen makers who first added fins to their feeds did?

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/22/2016 at 6:27 AM, Tas said:

 

Phew!

 

*goes to sink and flushes pen for the first time since Dec

There are two forums on FPN about iron gal inks.... just found out... and I am reading ... and am amazed.