Feeds-Simple And Complex

[Frank66]

  On 9/16/2016 at 11:17 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Luckily, my Ahab worked with out fiddling, and my old vintage Ebonite feeds have never been a problem...but that was also a great link. The handsaw blade strikes me as better than a carpet knife blade.

 

Yes, I agree, I have used both methods and, at least in my hands, the thin handsaw blade leaves out cleaner grooves for ink to flow easily, plus it is safer for the fingers compared to knife blades or other sharp pointed instruments also used for the same purpose.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Frank66

[Pendel]

I find the regular saw blades to be too wide, and so I use precision razor saws (like

Xacto X75300 etc.) These work very well. In fact when I make my own feeds from ebonite rods, I use these saws to cut the fins as well.

 

:-)

Edited September 16, 2016 by Pendel

[alfredop]

  On 9/15/2016 at 11:27 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

 

Unfortunately, the new Persona that the chief of design who led the tour said would be out next year...never came out.

Well, they have a new Lamy Persona in production, I do not remember the name of the new model, unfortunately they changed the clip and the nib.

 

Alfredo

P.S. I prefer the old version

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thanks for the new Persona info....though it won't be on the top of the list....I picked up a used Dupont....even if it's a nail....one 'needs' a Dupont. I'm not much into nails.

 

I will now go and look at Lamy.com.

Thanks.

 

The new Persona is called the Imporium. Matt titanium, so could be lighter???

I'm not sure what my original is other than mat black....and not one that plays well with other pens in the cup so it has it's very own place to sit.

The other is a black aluminum.

 

Gold, Platin oder Titanium clip....I'd have to take a look at the titanium clip.

Bi-colored gold nib.

 

Designer is still the same I think, Mario Bellini, a 'second' model of the time??....in it was 1990 when the Persona came out....3-5 year development. Seeing he was born in 1935...I'd say it was an alternative cap to the original design.

 

At least it won't roll off the table. The first model had no little bump in the recessed clip, so rolled off the table easy....the little bump....is very little on the second model. I have the first model.

The OB nail nib did nothing in line variation, so was stored under the bed in it's box. Pendelton Brown made it a CI and now I always have it out....along with too many other pens.

 

I live in a fair sized dorf....village, one of the opticians, sells antiques and or sells them on commission. I went in and he had that funny looking Lamy that I as 'noobie' knew nothing.

At home I brought up a picture of it, twisting my wife's arm to look at the pretty pen. Back then as 'noobie' 100 Euro was over my limit....just looking.

The next day.... with out my permission..... absolutely behind my back.... my wife bought it for me.

Now a vintage wife, that I got new in the box. A classic.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 3:56 AM, Tinjapan said:

As I understand, the fins allow a place for ink to go, other than on the paper, if you set down your pen after a period of writing to grab a sip of coffee. They also provide a reservoir closer to the nib tip reducing dry starts.

How do you make sure that the ink goes first onto the paper and then into the fins?

 

Once you put the pen down, ink flow should stop... and generally does.

 

Ink in the fins dries out first and often clogs up the capillaries...

 

I have got a chapter on that topic on my site ...

Return to the Bubble Bottle

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 7:25 AM, Frank66 said:

Feeds are important, I personally think this FPN forum section should be named "Of Nibs & Feeds" instead of "Of Nibs & Tines" which actually is a ''redundant'' repetition, since tines are part of nibs.

 

The importance of feeds comes to mind especially when we try to modify pens for flexible writing. IMHO, more information should be sought and presented on feeds, feeds anatomy and feed modifications in this forum, but again this is my personal opinion.

 

-Frank66

Agree... before you get out the hack saw and sand paper... information helps

 

I have written stuff on feeds and nibs on my site: Fountain Pen Magic.

 

Click on the orange line at the bottom and it will take you there.

 

Any questions? Please ask. Questions are my fuel ahm, ink, I wanted to say.

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 8:26 AM, Fuellerfuehrerschein said:

I have an Indian handmade eye dropper pen that holds 3.5 ml of ink in its barrel. This amount of ink cannot be practically used. The relatively modest buffering capacity of the simple feed inhibits that.

 

The traditional 6.35 mm (0.25 in) diameter ebonite feed is about 51 mm (2 in) long.

 

The feed allows about 2 ml of ink usage without getting into ink burping trouble. The warmth of the writer’s hand heating up and hence expanding the air trapped behind the ink in the barrel during writing is the cause of ink burping. During writing a subtle increase in ink flow indicates that I need to fill up the pen.

2 ml is a hell of a lot of ink to be absorbed by a feed, especially with no fins.

 

Very good observation about the hand heating up the ink reservoir. Pens with cartridges, bladders or converters prevent this. Heating up also depends on the topic you are writing about.

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 12:40 PM, fabri00 said:

I dont think burping is only due to the buffering capacity of the nib.

 

I have 2 indian airmail pen in ebonite with original nib and feed from airmail, and a 3rd one modified to hold pelikan screw nib and feed unit.

Burping is allmost same with pelikan feed/nib unit, and original one.

 

The same pelikan feed/nib unit mounted in a pelikan 200 piston filled, do not burp at all.

IMHO... it's the huge reservoir and eventually the large air volume as the ink is used up, which causes the burping (nice word). In my research I found that in worst case scenario, about 1 ml is the maximum a feed with fins can compensate.

 

Ever wondered why goo ball pen refills don't burp?

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 1:57 PM, handwriter said:

The performance of a feed depends not only of its shape, but also of the material it is made of.

Early feeds were made of ebonite, which is porous and presents a porous surface thus facilitating the ink buffering and evaporation. In modern feeds made of less porous plastics, the presence of fins add surface to the feed to compensate the decrease in porosity.

The surface of the feed material effects the surface reaction between the material and the ink. The pores are to tiny to absorb surplus ink coming from the reservoir.

 

On my site I talk about how to increase porosity of plastic. Link is at the bottom of this post

 

The function of the fins is to take up the ink which is pushed out of the reservoir due to temperature and barometric pressure changes and the occasional shock.

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/14/2016 at 11:19 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Tass that was the greatest of links.

another fine myth bites the dust. :crybaby:

 

That's ok I still like my ebonite vintage feeds, but the huge buffering unit of the P-51 explains why you can fly with it.

Roughness did the trick....and with the way an ebonite feed was made plus the material...is still good to go.

 

So all the plastic feeds from way back when, '40s when they started to when this guy did the trick....'late '80s+, are substandard, unless the cutting machine was slightly off.

 

So which pen company did he work for Pelikan or MB???

Hooooo... I can hardly cope. Thanks for the praise

 

.... and don't throw your ebonite feeds away. It's the combination of feed and reservoir design. With a small enough reservoir, or a bladder (elastic) surplus ink can be kept minimal. In olden days people liked a wetter style of writing. Blotting paper was common.

 

The trick only works with copolymers including styrene... ABS or SAN. available since early 1940... don't know when they started using it for feeds.

 

So, which company did he work for?

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/15/2016 at 12:17 AM, Jamerelbe said:

 

I think Lamy - he's been commenting on the Lamy forum about his past experience with their manufacturing processes...

good point

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/15/2016 at 6:28 AM, Tas said:

 

Ask him he's on the forum Pengineneer.

He seems a lovely man and very good at replying and communicating . . .

Good idea...

 

Thanks for the "lovely man"

 

Would you mind if I pass this on to my ex?

[Pen Engineer]

  On 9/15/2016 at 11:27 AM, Bo Bo Olson said:

After going to bed, before sleeping saying to my self....going to BASF in Ludwickhaven across the Rhine from Mannheim, a 20 minute drive; driving hours to somewhere (Essen) in north Germany and that feed did look Lamy....I decided he had to work at Lamy.

So I will have a better opinion of Lamy Feeds now....but all Lamy's are nails, so I don't use them much.

 

Two or three years ago they had a newspaper won tour of the Lamy factory which is some 20 minute drive from where I live, that I and my wife won. They gave ball points instead of pens as a parting gift. Lamy does make good ball points...and the machine that does the ball point 'cartridges' is '60-70's tec. My wife has 5-6 good Lamy ball points that somehow fell into my hands. She having left eye dominance and really canting the nib, don't use fountain pens, when she can help it.

 

My Lamy Persona is first model @ 1990....so it could or could not have the better feed.

 

From last weeks Weekend insert of the Rhein Necker newspaper's first page was a full page write up on Lamy...and fountain pens.

The writer made a mistake of having Parker invent the fountain pen in 1833...oh well..Waterman 1883...was not the first but the first that worked well. In @ 1900 Paul E. Wirt made the best fountain pens in the World....Sears and Roebuck said so. Eyedroppers of course. 1912 Sheaffer invents the lever rubber sac pen and @ the same time Conklin has a push half moon sac pen. Mark Twain loved the Conklin.

 

Lamy has 80% of the German market..world wide are in the front, with 100 million Euro in sales, with a 30% growth rate.

 

320 workers, claims to be the only German pen company that has 100% made in Germany. It can take 3-5 years to develop a new pen. Two years if they have all the parts on hand. Made 55,000 gold nibs last year.

The slit in the nibs...didn't say gold or steel is 0.08-0.12mm

 

I do know they make their own ink there. got a big huge cartridge machine. The cartridges come out, laying down. A big corner contraption of hoses to mix ink.

 

The newspaper article said making the clips is more difficult than one would expect.

 

So I'll have to use Lamy ink for my Lamy pens....and that seems to go for each pen company. Something both Pelikan and MB have claimed. I know MB inks were made in Austria and Switzerland. I don't know where Pelikan inks are made...some are made in Germany. I really don't save the boxes much.

Sigh......too bad I have two unopened other shaped vintage Lamy blue ink bottles.....he improved the ink too.

 

Unfortunately, the new Persona that the chief of design who led the tour said would be out next year...never came out.

Sherlock Holmes?

 

They are nails? you mean, they have hard nibs?

 

Then design of the nib, (folded under wings) is the give away for the new feed there is inside. All new models since 1983 have the safari interior.

 

Since feeds are finicky, parameters need to be kept narrow during research, so you make ink which performs within narrow tolerances. The feed is tuned to this ink, which does not mean that other inks don't work. If you use other ink and nothing changes, go ahead. If it does then you know.

 

Are you from the Heidelberger Gegend? The way you spell Necker would indicate this.

[Pen Engineer]

 

Now a vintage wife, that I got new in the box. A classic.

 

 

You got your vintage wife in a new box?

[Tinjapan]

  On 9/17/2016 at 1:29 AM, PenIngeneer said:

How do you make sure that the ink goes first onto the paper and then into the fins?

 

Once you put the pen down, ink flow should stop... and generally does.

 

Ink in the fins dries out first and often clogs up the capillaries...

 

I have got a chapter on that topic on my site ...

 

Return to the Bubble Bottle

"How do you make sure that the ink goes first onto the paper and then into the fins?"

 

Path of least resistance.

 

"Once you put the pen down, ink flow should stop... and generally does."

 

Ink is still entrained in the feed channel and will go somewhere if the path used when writting is blocked.

 

"Ink in the fins dries out first and often clogs up the capillaries..."

 

Sure does but usuallly not so quickly that you don't have time to grab a sip of coffee or turn the page.

 

I believe that things are not made more complex unless there is a reason for them to become more complex. At present, I have a dozon or so vintage pens with finless feeds inked. While they are a pleasure to use, I do not use them for important documents especially those that require long writing spells. It is not an everytime time event, but I have had a lot of experience of ink droping from the nib or from around the feed after writing with my vintage pens and have never experienced this problem with modern pens.

 

As I have read that the reasons I gave are the reasons behind the development of feeds with fins and as they seemed to fix the ink flow problems associated with the earlier feeds and from my own expeirence with vintage pens without this innovation and modern pens with it, I remain convinced this is the case.

 

 

 

[praxim]

@tinjapan

 

Seeking to interpret what you are saying, the following is your model of how finned and finless feeds work:

1. Ink initially flows down the feed channel to the paper.

2. You lift the pen so the "entrained" ink (inertial flow?) needs to go somewhere so it goes into the fins while the flow slows to a halt.

3. You write again. Starting is immediate because there is a reservoir of ink in the fins to allow writing while the ink flow from the cartridge resumes and accelerates to the necessary speed.

4. By this time the reservoir is depleted and the cycle is ready to go again from 2. next time you stop writing.

 

If the feed is finless then the inertially careering ink flow will blob on the paper (sometimes).

 

I do not agree with your model. I am merely trying to get a clear and fair understanding of it given an alternative has been put forward by an engineer formerly professionally engaged with fountain pens.

 

If I have misunderstood details, please clarify so I know what is being proposed.

Edited September 18, 2016 by praxim

[Tinjapan]

  On 9/18/2016 at 6:39 AM, praxim said:

@tinjapan

Seeking to interpret what you are saying, the following is your model of how finned and finless feeds work:

1. Ink initially flows down the feed channel to the paper.

2. You lift the pen so the "entrained" ink (inertial flow?) needs to go somewhere so it goes into the fins while the flow slows to a halt.

3. You write again. Starting is immediate because there is a reservoir of ink in the fins to allow writing while the ink flow from the cartridge resumes and accelerates to the necessary speed.

4. By this time the reservoir is depleted and the cycle is ready to go again from 2. next time you stop writing.

If the feed is finless then the inertially careering ink flow will blob on the paper (sometimes).

I do not agree with your model. I am merely trying to get a clear and fair understanding of it given an alternative has been put forward by an engineer formerly professionally engaged with fountain pens.

If I have misunderstood details, please clarify so I know what is being proposed.

The only change I would make is to point 3. I would say that the starting is MORE immediate....

 

I learned this from one ofseveral sources that I have read over recent months. I believe it was on the "Fountain Pen Magic" website by Amadeus Wolfgang. Where ever I leearned it, it fits my own applied use of physics and fluid dynamics and observation from my own use of pens, vintage and modern.

 

I will allow that some other factor may be behind the problem of ink flowing out of the nib or feed after writing dissapearing, but as the fins came about as they sought a solution to this problem I would like to know what it could be.

[praxim]

So, you probably took these words from the said "Amadeus W Penmacher"

 

  Quote

The underlying idea for the slit array is:

During general use, the overflow slits are empty so that their full capacity is available in case of need. If they get filled, they will be emptied first (when writing) before ink is drawn from the tank.

 

That is the same person who appears to disagree with you in post #25 about what it all means, after which you disagree with him, your own reference, in #35

I wonder why my head hurts?

I await the next chapter in this interesting discussion with, er, interest.

[Tinjapan]

That would be part of it, a portion of the reservior function.

 

The design features and their purposes facinate me as they are so similar to larger fluid systems. Overflow/reservior tanks are necessary on any fluid supply system if a constant flow is desired despite varying demand.

 

Again, if the fins on feeds are not what solved the ink blob problem, what did?

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO....fins/combs came in with stiffer nibs, to hold back ink that flowed faster in superflex nibs. You needed faster flow because of the width a superflex tines can spread to.

 

It appears feeds were always fitted to an ink or that era's ink. The 'new' 1940 Parker ink, that was very fast drying, needed the huge buffering unit that the P-51 has. As far as I can guess the biggest such unit. The ink ate other pen's feeds, so was discontinued quickly. I believe that the P-51 may have had one of the very first plastic feeds.I'm a one-P-51 expert, you know.

 

Peningeneer, yes I'm an American living in Germany. My wife poked her temple with two fingers (as Germans do) "Go to America where they only have 10 days of vacation, am I foolish?

(The so-called two weeks of vacation) The Germans have 30 full days of vacation plus a couple more when one gets old. (6 weeks) Of course normally you can only take three weeks at a time. It takes one full week to get rid of all thoughts of work....the second week is 'work free' then the third week starts getting ruined with thoughts of work interfering with mellow.

Working for the US government then, had the same.

 

The great think about the German health system is not having to save sick hours. I lost 300 hours twice when changing jobs.....In the Stars and Stripes later saw US Government workers begging sick hours Europe wide to die in the job...Saw teachers when I worked in the School system being gifted with sick hours....and I took that as 'normal'.

A man here on the com, got very ill and had to sell the worlds largest collection of Wearever pens for next to nothing...in Germany no one has to sell their house, car or even a cheap pen for health problems.

Health insurance costs between 13-15%. Just go to the Doctor...no pay in advance and hope your insurance is good for it. I saw a woman working at a motel where I stayed when in the States on business. She'd been bitten in the face by her dog, in she had to break up a dog fight in the neighbor's yard....or she could have been sued. After three days of watching her face look worse and worse I ordered her to the doctor....and she complained the generic medicine she got cost more than the $70 Doctor visit. No health care and worked 39 hours a week....well that was before Obama care...which was so gutted.

I can remember America before Reagan when everyone who worked had good insurance. There wasn't a single bag Lady in the US before Reagan.

When you live far away....you see the changes when you return for a visit.

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

My wife, as pen and box was new....now being semi-vintage to vintage, has a fine patina that good classics should have.

 

I worked in Ikea for 20 years, so was 'shocked' that the Lamy warehouse was so small and only two bins high. Just in time delivery, just in time pallets out the door. You have some good hard working organized men there.

xxxxxxxxx

 

The oldest pen I use is a slick feed Waterman 52....may be from the '20's. I have 'finless' pens from the '30's and some early '50's MB pens, one with shallow side combs (many others have shallow side combs too) the other with just two channels on the bottom, I don't have trouble with dripping ink.....perhaps you have a problem with your rubber sac has gotten old.

 

Perhaps it's your ink that is the problem. What inks do you use?

 

I normally use the basic MB, Pelikan (4001&Edelstein), R&G, Herbin, in my older pens.

With out rhyme or reason I tend to shy away from supersaturated inks in my old pens.

 

And I find the Diamine inks to feather, so don't use them much.....got to find a school kid to give them too....they still use fountain pens in German schools.

 

Lamy turquoise will shade on 90g paper....in I do like shading. It don't on 80g....(don't have Rhoda but expect it to shade there.)

 

Peningeneer's ink talk was as interesting as his modern feed talk. I do know both Pelikan and MB advise using their own inks.....and can see 'now' that Lamy ink, should be used in a Lamy. Well, I now see much more why each pen company recommends their own ink...in it has been fitted for their nib and feed................not just a way to sell more ink.

I'm still going to be using other folks inks in different pens....for the fun of it.

 

Peningeneer, I don't know when the Lamy ink bottle with the built in wipe came in.....how much different is the 'unopened' older 'gooseneck' bottles ink from that ink?