Montblanc Nib Size

[Dorf]

[ImQuagmire]

Hello Dorf

 

Well, it certainly looks like at least a medium, maybe even B, no way it is a fine nib imho.

 

And no, there are no signs on the nib that would refer to nib width.

[jar]

The only way to tell what nib is on a modern Montblanc is look at the sticker on the body on the pen.

 

http://www.fototime.com/2E09369228DD4F5/medium800.jpg

 

New pens will have a sticker on them with the size designation.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Modern MB and Pelikan are fatter than semi-vintage or vintage by at least 1/2 a width....more perhaps for MB.

 

I have three '50's MB's where the size is as marked, so is my '70-80's 146. But my Woolf B is a BB.

Pelikan and MB have gone over to fatter nibs in many users still hold them like ball points.

 

Then there is the tolerance/slop. If you go to the Shaffer sub section, in the pinned section is an article by Ron Zorn from when he visited Janesvile just as it closed down.

Each company has it's own standards of what a width should be (If you started with Japanese all western nibs but Aurora will seem fat to you), and a Skinny M can be exactly the same as a Fat F.....or be only 1/100th of an inch off of the F limit. So it looks like you have a Fat F.

 

I made a major mistake when I swapped nibs on my Woolf. Knowing nibs are fatter now, wanted a B. In the shop on their paper the M wrote like a B. However at home, on better paper...(always bring your own paper) it wrote like a M.

I Did Not tell the pen shop to write down....make sure the replacement nib was in the middle of B tolerance so got a Fat B....when I wanted a skinny B....in it's modern and fatter than my '52-54 234 1/2 Deluxe KOB....a writing nib....not a signature nib.

So if you have a new one, under 5-6 weeks old, get the nib swapped, insisting on middle of tolerance or on the skinny side of F. Have your pen shop write that down on the nib swap form. Could be you really want a modern fatter EF than an F.

 

If used....does the nib write well? If so fine.

What paper are you using.....and what ink are you using. You can make your nib write up to a full size narrower with the right ink and paper.

 

 

Grumble, Grumble....thanks Jar....perhaps MB gave me a BB instead of a B...in there is no marking on that nib....And I never really looked...I do love that my eye only monotone bling of the Woolf.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[SpecTP]

that doesn't even look like an 'M' nib.. none of my MB's write that thick and I tend towards 'F' nibs.

[wastelanded]

To my eye, that's definitely a broad nib, not even a fat M.

[jar]

It does not show the characteristic cursive italic features common to Montblancs "B" and wider nibs.

[mr2txaggie]

About 7 months ago I purchased a new Medium nibbed 149. It wrote more like a Fine, perhaps a fat F but definitely not a Medium.

 

This was my first MB. Is there a problem with size consistency with MBs? I was going to have the nib swapped out but found a fellow member that decided to buy it from me. Therefore I will try again. Next time I'll measure the nib width before inking it up.

[jar]

About 7 months ago I purchased a new Medium nibbed 149. It wrote more like a Fine, perhaps a fat F but definitely not a Medium.

 

This was my first MB. Is there a problem with size consistency with MBs? I was going to have the nib swapped out but found a fellow member that decided to buy it from me. Therefore I will try again. Next time I'll measure the nib width before inking it up.

There is no problem with size consistency with MBs (and many other better marques) but there is almost no consistency. The nibs are finished by hand and nib widths are determined based on ranges. At the extremes of each range there will be some overlap and determination made by the individual.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Go to Sheaffer sub section in the pinned section, there is a great article by Ron Zorn that explains tolerance. That every company has. Tolerance is part of that company's standard nib size that has absolutely nothing to do with any other company's standard.

 

(Era's make a difference too, MB and Pelikan use to make thinner nibs...but because many Ball Point Barbarians refuse to learn how to hold a fountain pen....fatter tipped nibs are now standard.)

 

A Skinny M can be exactly a Fat F....still within that company's standard, or a hair off the border line, just as easy, as being in the middle of the range.

 

I really don't expect the 1.5 or 1.1 or smaller marked numbers that pen companies have started making to be much tighter than the old BB, B, M, F and EF....It's stuck in a guage or two, then in a little box to be stamped....just like normal marked nibs.

 

I started out with US pens which are or were close enough to Euro pens considering each company had it's own standards, I have a Mark 1 Eyeball calibrated eyeball. So to me all Japanese pens are Too Skinny.

 

If you started out with Japanese, your Mark 2 Eyeball is calibrated to that narrower size, so all western nibs (outside perhaps Aurora) will be Too Fat.

 

It does look like an M to me....not a B...but I have a Mark 1 Eyeball.

 

If the pen is new....do a nib swap...you have 5-6 weeks to do so normally. Get an EF....or a skinny F, tell them you do not want a fat to tolerance nib.

[mr2txaggie]

 

 

Thanks for the info, jar & Bo Bo.

 

To me the tolerances should be better defined. Like a Fine should be from "A" mm to "B" mm, a Medium should be from "C" mm to "D" mm and the line width shouldn't overlap. That's just my opinion.

 

Bo Bo, I agree with you on the pens from the East. One of my first pens was a Japanese pen and I was so surprised to find out that the size of the nib was approximately a full size narrower!

[Bo Bo Olson]

You have a guy standing there shoving finished nibs into a gauge. In more of a hurry that is good, but he has to grade so many nibs an hour. There will be a nib or three that had he the time, could have been tossed into another box for size stamping.

 

From Ron Zorn who visited the Sheaffer factory as it was closing down.

 

Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050

 

A skinny M can = a fat F, or a fat M can = a skinny B and so on...then you really can't tell if skinny M is 1/1000th of an inch (or mm ) within tolerance..................then the very next company has a different standard of the width of it's nib range.....There a Skinny M could be with in the F range of another company....like a Parker vs Sheaffer.....Sheaffer once had the thinner nib....don't know about today. There was an overlap of nib widths if compared to other companies.

 

I have an old obsolete chart....that showed Conway Stewart as the by far fattest nib range, then Parker, Sheaffer, then Pelikan = the Fat Waterman set....then the 800 it's own nib size, then the Skinny Waterman nib set....in all cases the Pelikan EF was thinner. (was so once....but the Barbarians won the war...so Western EF is now fatter. Of course it's the Mark Two Japanese calibrated eye balls that say they are so FAT. Could be, I chase old pens. )

 

That was a '80-early '90's chart in no Japanese nibs were listed. (Japanese pens only became main stream in the mid-late '90's. Before that they were a nitch market. That do to quality like Toyota, they became mainstream.)

There had once been flame wars between Pelikan and Waterman fans....change nibs vs your Pelikan nib is too Fat................sounds just like the Western vs Japanese today.

After the chart came out that Waterman also made a Pelikan Fat nib set....the flame war died.

 

It is an odd thing...and not only in pens, but those with the Fat Waterman nibs never said a word being I guess ashamed they had a fat nib....so never mentioned it.

I have no idea why Waterman had two standards...for the cheaper pens?....for different markets? or were they a step ahead in the Barbarian War.

Pelikan now has the semi-vintage-vintage era smaller size and the modern flat and blobby size.

 

Each company has it's own standards and every company has it's own tolerance....and those changed when the Ham Fisted Ball Point Barbarians, became the main customer....so fatter blobbier stiffer nibs were needed, in the Jack Hammer Barbarians refuse to learn to hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen and not like a ball point. They bent too many nibs that needed repair.

 

Even Lamy's lower cost pens which are very mechanically made, have tolerance....as is shown on the Lamy sub section. I did a factory tour there....and they have a 10m nib machine operated by one single man.

They planned the tour so the old fashioned gold nib section was on breakfast @ 9:00 and we couldn't wander around stealing gold. A quick look and out the door to the factory down stairs.

 

The ball point 'cartridge' machine was top of the line....'60's era tec....all that was needed.

 

By the way, some fine Japanese poster did a thread on the 'exact' ball point size myth. Like fountain pen nibs, they too are not as exact as marked.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Bo Bo Olson

[Jordan N]

What is the paper and ink used for sample?

[gerigo]

When I started out collecting fountain pens seriously about 4-5 years ago, I struggled a lot with the nibs from Montblanc because they were simply too wide but I thought it was just me with my tiny writing.

 

Fast forward today, having understood how different pen manufacturers measure their nibs and how these nib sizes fit my writing needs, here's MY categorization.

 

Extra fine - Sailors Fine nibs. Probably the best fines in the business. If you want this nib from Montblanc, you have to ask Axel to make you one.

Fine - Sailors medium or Platinum's MF

Architect's Point - Montblanc's Extra Fine or Sailor's Naginata FineMedium

Medium - Montblanc's fine, Sailor's Broad

Broad - Montblanc's medium, Platinum's Broad

Medium Stub - Montblanc's Broad

Broad Stub - Montblanc's Double Broad

 

I think I finally have figured out how Montblanc's nibs fit my needs.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Sailors are the Fat Japanese nibs.....

And an EF nib (Japanese F) should be 'finer' than a Fine nib....in Japanese nibs are @ 1 size narrow for marking.

[gerigo]

I guess all I am trying to say is that it is a lot harder to get a true fine from a European pen maker. Also you should always take the markings from pen manufacturers with a grain of salt. Have your own measure, and fit the right maker to what you want the pen to do. You can't get everything from one pen manufacturer.

 

Sailors are the Fat Japanese nibs.....

And an EF nib (Japanese F) should be 'finer' than a Fine nib....in Japanese nibs are @ 1 size narrow for marking.

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO...you are wanting a EF marked as F....ok....but that is not what it 'really' is, to my Mark 1 Calibrated Eyeball.

 

Modern MB or Pelikan is fatter than semi-vintage or vintage. The western pen makers caved into the bottom line of making fatter nibs for Ball Point Barbarians who refuse to hold a fountain pen like a fountain pen, but continue to hold it before the big index knuckle like a ball point.

The nibs are now 'double kugal' and fatter tipped....semi-nail so it don't get bent by the Jack Hammer Barbarians. ....A springy, 'true' regular flex gives such a better ride.

 

IMO any one who buys a modern Western pen has only himself to blame....ok....I did buy a Woolf. and a 605, ....

 

I chase semi-vintage & Vintage for the better nibs, better balance and being cheap enough to afford to buy many top of the line pens.

Too many of the modern pens are Large = clunky, ill balanced bling catchers. I like a light and nimble pen....on the whole. I do of course have Large pens....I do not reach for my '70's Large 146 when my '50's medium large 146 with the better balance and nib is next to it.

(If you refuse to post your Standard or Medium-large pens.....you deserve to be stuck with clunky Large pens.)

 

I only use western EF for editing, in such a narrow nib can't shade. Western F can shade.& M is a very good nib size. Smoother than F and a good shading nib. 90g paper good for shading is not all that more expensive than 80g copy paper that is not.

 

A modern MB nib is 'springy' good tine bend, but only @ 2 X tine spread, as I've read, like a Falcon. I have semi-flex, between and maxi-semi-flex MB's from the early '50's. A 'true' regular flex on a '70-80's Large 146....my '50's 146 with the maxi-semi-flex is a medium large pen....better nib, better balance.

 

The amount of flex a nib has makes a big difference to width, depending on how heavy handed one is.

I do always suggest that one of the EF nibs one has be a nail....in it stays the same width. My Hand is light enough that my Reform EF 'true' regular flex stays EF.

My Geha EF is a maxi-semi-flex and can slide into F real easy...in sometimes my Hand is not as light as it could be.

 

So if one is a tad heavy handed, a 'springy' nib or a 'true' regular flex, could and will be wider than a nail.

 

Living in the market for vintage German pens, never chased Japanese. The only Japanese pen I had was a Sheaffer....a nice thin nib....nail. I don't chase nails. I have one in every width, just to have it.(Well, I do have a couple of others ...but they can go as soon as I sell.)

 

In EF or Japanese F needs a vivid boring monotone supersaturated ink to be seen....I'm not into EF out side of Editing because I like shading ink....and have good to better paper. One of the IMO valid reasons to use a EF.............then there are the poor disadvantaged*** ones who can not for the life of them expand their tiny script. ...(I'd take off if I was a teacher and needed a magnifying glass).

Japanese pens are made to print in a tiny script....so if one insists on a tiny script or prints....Japanese is the only way to go.

 

***Actually it is easy to expand a tiny script...take two sheets of paper, fold in half, on each half front and back, start out writing as large as you can...and smaller on each half.

Then there are line making programs so you can print wider lines for a B nib, middle lines for a M nib or collage lines for a F-EF nib. Collage lines are too narrow for a western B nib.

 

There are soft (mushy)...Japanese nibs, 'Springy' ones like the Falcon....are they mostly nails otherwise?