Adding Flex To A 14K Nib, Again

[PaganArcher]

I have some Nitinol tubing that I tried out as dip pen. It does not have the snap back as your steel dip pens. Flex but not snap.

 

So no go.

That's likely the result of annealing, and lacking the temperature to acquire springiness. Tubing (most metals) is always annealed in my experience as it's often rolled into rings and welded together. Hardened and tempered metal would shatter under the rolling conditions.

[Inky.Fingers]

The sample was ordered with super elastic property from the same company that makes orthodontic wires. Unless spring and elastic is different in definition... Others have reviewed titanium nibs and have similar conclusion.

Edited May 16, 2016 by InkyTongue

[Frank66]

The sample was ordered with super elastic property from the same company that makes orthodontic wires. Unless spring and elastic is different in definition... Others have reviewed titanium nibs and have similar conclusion.

 

I agree. Nitinol wrought nickel-titanium alloy (55% Ni-45% titanium) was introduced for orthodontiic purposes back in the early 1970's. The same alloy is also used by endodontists (dentists specialized in root canals) for endodontic files with memory shape. What that means is that a thin wire made from this alloy can be bent elastically and return to its original shape, whereas a wire made of stainless steel would remain permanently deformed. I know all this because I have used them, as I am a dentist. The same alloy was also used for eyeglasses frames.

 

Ni-Ti alloys present high resiliency, which might be a desirable property when used for a flex nib up to a certain point. Alas, according to my experience using these alloys in dentistry, they are too superelastic to be used as nibs, as they may turn out to be way too flexible than required for a flexy nib. Perhaps a different alloy formulation might be needed.

 

There is also the wrought beta-titanium alloy with molybdenum, its mechanical properties fall between stainless steel and Ni-Ti alloys, that is also used for orthodontic wires.

 

There also cast Titanium alloys, like the Ti-6Al-4V alloy, which is the alloy used for quite a few dental implants and implant components, which I guess might be close to the material used by Bock for the Bock titanium nibs, which are semi-flexible nibs. Of course the compositiion of these nibs is a company secret, but these alloys can be difficult to polish, and in some reviews I hear some people using the Bock Titanium nibs complaining about a perceptible amount of scratchiness when using these nibs. To be fair, I have not personally used these nibs but hopefully I am ordering one soon from Beaufort ink UK, and once I have a personal opinion about this, I will post back.

 

Meltemi also in a recent post pondered about the use of Nitinol for Flex Manufacturiing https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/306610-flex-manufacturing/ post #12, where I meant to post this same info, I just did not have time to until now. I hope I do not overindulge the forum kindness if I post this info there too.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Frank66

[ninobrn99]

 

I agree. Nitinol wrought nickel-titanium alloy (55% Ni-45% titanium) was introduced for orthodontiic purposes back in the early 1970's. The same alloy is also used by endodontists (dentists specialized in root canals) for endodontic files with memory shape. What that means is that a thin wire made from this alloy can be bent elastically and return to its original shape, whereas a wire made of stainless steel would remain permanently deformed. I know all this because I have used them, as I am a dentist. The same alloy was also used for eyeglasses frames.

 

Ni-Ti alloys present high resiliency, which might be a desirable property when used for a flex nib up to a certain point. Alas, according to my experience using these alloys in dentistry, they are too superelastic to be used as nibs, as they may turn out to be way too flexible than required for a flexy nib. Perhaps a different alloy formulation might be needed.

 

There is also the wrought beta-titanium alloy with molybdenum, its mechanical properties fall between stainless steel and Ni-Ti alloys, that is also used for orthodontic wires.

 

There also cast Titanium alloys, like the Ti-6Al-4V alloy, which is the alloy used for quite a few dental implants and implant components, which I guess might be close to the material used by Bock for the Bock titanium nibs, which are semi-flexible nibs. Of course the compositiion of these nibs is a company secret, but these alloys can be difficult to polish, and in some reviews I hear some people using the Bock Titanium nibs complaining about a perceptible amount of scratchiness when using these nibs. To be fair, I have not personally used these nibs but hopefully I am ordering one soon from Beaufort ink UK, and once I have a personal opinion about this, I will post back.

 

Meltemi also in a recent post pondered about the use of Nitinol for Flex Manufacturiing https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/306610-flex-manufacturing/ post #12, where I meant to post this same info, I just did not have time to until now. I hope I do not overindulge the forum kindness if I post this info there too.

A work around if it's too flexy could be something like what Delta did with their fusion nibs, or an adjustable Doric or the Pilot Justus 95 and add a brace of sorts to adjust accordingly. Just a random thought as I read through this pretty briskly.

 

Nino

[Frank66]

A work around if it's too flexy could be something like what Delta did with their fusion nibs, or an adjustable Doric or the Pilot Justus 95 and add a brace of sorts to adjust accordingly. Just a random thought as I read through this pretty briskly.

 

Nino

Yes, I would agree, in my mind it needs someone to take it further and look more into it, I think it might be do-able.

[Inky.Fingers]

I tried cutting nitinol with dental separating disc in my attempt to reach a height of success, during my flex bug period. It's just simply not feasible. To much tooling for little gain.

 

Besides, nitinol is a pain to fix if you have sprung the nib. Memory wire is awesome in orthodontic applications and arterial stents, but in pens ..whooseeee! Oy vey, a nightmare.

 

Besides, the surface tension on nitinol is so different for ink flow.

 

Verse a nice vintage nib and having fun modding for flex... i pick the latter.

 

 

Ps.. why am i bothering with flex now? Line variation can easily achieved with broad edged nibs. Unless you are a calligrapher by trade, learning flex writing with an oblique dip pen takes 1 to two years for an average Joe. Broad pen, a month of intense with better results.

 

If you seek better penmanship, seek it, do it, do your time, and not the pen.

Edited May 16, 2016 by InkyTongue

[Pen Engineer]

I have some Nitinol tubing that I tried out as dip pen. It does not have the snap back as your steel dip pens. Flex but not snap.

 

So no go.

heaven has a million ways.... man has only one... Lao Tsu.... beat that!

 

snap is expressed, sort of, by the modulus of elasticity. At least it permits some comparison of materials. It is the ratio between the applied force and the amount of deformation. Within the range of elasticity, the two are proportional.

 

The large the elastic range the better for springy things, like nibs

 

Stainless steel 180 GPa

Gold 80 GPa

 

Nitinol 41-75 GPa

 

the Nitrinol modulus is not linear. the stronger the bend the stiffer it gets.

[AAAndrew]

Interesting. And few dip pens were made of stainless steel. They did make them, but they were more expensive than the other, which from contemporary accounts, was good quality Birmingham steel. Even today they don't make dip pens from stainless steel. They still make it from non-stainless (don't know what kind) and then coat it, which is why they still rust and you can't use a dip pen in a fountain pen for long, and the tougher the coating (see Zebra G's titanium coated version) the better people like it in a fountain pen.

 

In accounts of how they made dip pens, they specifically say that for the more flexible pens they used thinner steel. And you can see a difference. One of these days I'm going to get a good micrometer and measure the thickness of various nibs. I have a cheap one and as far as my $20 micrometer can tell, a stiffer pen, but still flexible relative to most fountain pens, such as an Esterbrook 048 was at least .1-.2 mm thicker than a more flexible dip pen. And then the flexible pen is even thinner where it has been ground. But that is harder for me to measure since the nibs are curved there. I'm going to need a micrometer with pointed contacts.

[Frank66]

In accounts of how they made dip pens, they specifically say that for the more flexible pens they used thinner steel. And you can see a difference. One of these days I'm going to get a good micrometer and measure the thickness of various nibs. .....

 

May I shed some light on this topic. I just measured some of my nibs using my micrometer (DIAL CALIPER Tokyo Shizai). Two measurements were taken:

(i) APEX = One measurement was taken 2-3 mm from the nib tip, at the center of the nib.

(ii) BASE = Another measurement was taken 10 mm behind the nib hole, towards the base of the nib, at the center of the nib.

1. All my calligraphy dip nibs (including Zebra non-Titanium nibs, Brausse, and few Hiro):

APEX = BASE = 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

2. Fountain Pen Revolution #6 nib

APEX = BASE = 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

3. Jinhao #5 replacement nibs

APEX = BASE= 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

4. TWSBI Eco EF nib

APEX = BASE = 0.4mm (0.4mm throughout the length of the nib)

5. BOCK #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

6. JOWO #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

7. JINHAO #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

* The #6 nibs were thicker near the tip of the nib and thinner at the base of the nib.

CONCLUSIONS

~ It was noted that #6 Bock, Jowo and Jinhao nib thickness varied; they were thicker at their tip (0.5mm) and thinner at the base (0.3mm).

~ The remaining nibs had thickness that was consistent throughout their length.

~ Calligraphy nibs, #5 Jinhao nibs and #6 FPR nibs were 0.3mm thick throughout their length (0.3mm thick).

~ TWSBI Eco nib was 0.4mm thick throughout its length (0.4mm thick).

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah12/phzervas/5C1DAB58-8122-44E4-AF88-90AB621FF207_zpshmrqytnf.jpg

Picture of the dial calipers used for measuring the nib thickness, in this instance this is a stainless steel #6 F Bock nib.

PS: Initial post had measurements inadvertently reported in mm instead of tenths of a mm, which was the correct unit of my measurements. Many thanks to forum members for kindly pointing this out to me.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Frank66

[terim]

Hi Teri,

 

Long time no see. Hope you are doing well!

 

Yes, that nib is a firm nib and it is being pushed way beyond what that nib was designed and manufactured for. If you contact the manufacturer of any 14k nib, show them that picture and ask them to honor the warranty, they certainly will refuse it based on product abuse by its user.

 

There is absolutely no 14k firm nib that should be pushed like the OP did to try to spread the tines. They are not manufactured for such purposes. If you want to flex a nib purchase a real flex nib. If you want flex on the cheap buy dip nibs. If you want junk, gimmicks, and substandard so-called "modern flex nibs", then follow the advice of folks who do not really understand about flex nibs and sellers that are misleading a potential buyer or user.

 

Be well Teri!

Always great to get your input in these discussions, Mauricio!

 

You are right, flex was not an intention in the design or manufacture of these nibs. If there was a warranty, it flew out the window with the modification. We have yet to see how the mod holds up with usage.

 

But I would liken it to a car that has been souped up beyond the original manufacturer's design .... It may be finicky and require more adjusting than normal, and even easy to break, but while it's working it will be a fun ride!

[AAAndrew]

I think you may be leaving out a decimal point.

 

One of my thicker nibs, the Esterbrook 442 Jackson stub, is 0.27mm at it's heel, measured in the center of the arc of the nib. The vintage dip pens I have which are ground across the top are visibly thinner at that point, but I don't have the right tool to measure the thickness. They would grind the nib across the top from just behind the tip (leaving the tip full thickness to increase durability) all the way back to the eye hole.

 

I was able to get two decent measurements because they had grinds all the way to the edge of the nib. The first is a Leon Isaacs #6 Ladies Falcon from probably the 'teens. The thickest part of the heel is 0.27 mm. The thinnest part of the grind I could measure was 0.15mm. It would be considered a firm-to-semi-flex nib. The very delicate and flexible Hunt 103 (mapping pen) is 0.12mm at the heel and 0.08mm at the grind. This is on a micrometer that's supposedly accurate to +-0.01mm (like I said, it was cheap)

 

I just ordered myself a tube micrometer that allows the measurement of the thickness of tubes, what you need with a curved nib. And it has better accuracy. we'll see what it tells me.

[Inky.Fingers]

Test subject #1. Not just about flex nib but about just making one. An effort of mine and what I've learned..

 

1. Getting the ink flow correctly with a plastic feed is hard! If you are hammering or adding flex, make sure the ink flow is there. It gets worst if the feed is curved like this one.

2. Italic nib is easy. Getting the thines aligned after slitting the nib took a great deal of adjustments.

 

Overall pleasure 100% fun. Imagine with a 14k nib and being vintage. FUN factor exponential!

 

Now I now why Nino is on his quest!

 

 

 

Attempt #1

 

A naked nib...err unfinished nib looks so sexy, don't you think?

 

Attempt #2

 

Written with the NEW NIB. Makes my Herlitz looks pale!

Edited May 17, 2016 by InkyTongue

[ninobrn99]

I'd say it's a start! Just gotta figure out the tipping material if you plan to do anything besides a stub or italic. Did the cutting wheels come in yet? Also, do you have a nib block? I was gonna grab the one from Dale over at Pentooling, but opted for the acrylic one for now. That might help shape it better (if you're not already using it). Leigh had a great idea using a knitting needle to burnish her nibs. They're soft enough not to mar the gold, but strong enough to make the needed adjustments.

 

The other generic 14k nib I have will be ground tomorrow. I've made my marks for how I want to shape it (going without the cutouts this time) and will take a series of pictures to show before and after. The feed isn't matched so that and increasing ink flow will likely be in the works too. Hopefully I get it right and it'll be ready to throw into my Franklin-Christoph Model 66 Antique Glass that should be arriving soon!

 

Nino

[Inky.Fingers]

Thanks Nibmeister Nino.

 

No nibblock for me but I do have one.

 

Cutting wheel yes....0.2mm thick 1" diameter.

 

Tipping material -- http://www.richardlgreenwald.com/pen-parts-c-2/tipping-material-c-2_55/

He sells steel (three type: high carbon, hardened and regular), Shaeffer (unknown compo), platinum (my jeweler have plenty), titanium, and Iridium (Ruth+Os blend). I don't think anyone uses iridium anymore.

Also https://www.heraeus.com/en/group/products_and_solutions_group/products_for_writing_utensils/pen_point_alloy_e3/pen_point_alloy_e3.aspx

for the AM price of 1.0mm -- its about 25USD per 1000, min qty is 50,000. (Just make you wonder how much the nibmeister charges you ... it's the labor, not the alloy amount).

 

I'll leave the rest for you Nibmeister Nino.

 

Edited May 17, 2016 by InkyTongue

[Pen Engineer]

did you notice that nib material thickness is not the same?

[AAAndrew]

Here's how to do it old school.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/306360-washington-medallion-pen-co-how-they-made-steel-dip-pens/

[Inky.Fingers]

Don't get all ingeneer on me. I'm just having fun!

[ninobrn99]

Worked on the other nib last night. I over worked area between the tipping material and the breather hole. The line variation is very similar to the previous nib I posted, but it takes almost no pressure to open up the tines. Not really a good thing when you're trying to do normal writing.

 

I opted for the cutouts on this one again. I haven't figured out how to get the flex without them. I'll keep trying to figure it out. If I had any of my vintage flex pens with me, it would be a bit easier since I could watch the nibs behavior, but trying to imagine it and determine where to take away material is a bit troublesome. I think I have a good idea of what the shape of the tines should be. Maybe I need to figure out the components of force and that would give me an idea of which way I need to grind to shift the angles and allow the tines to open up a bit more with less pressure.

 

Watching the bending of the tines, I believe I need to leave striations for two main reasons: 1) allow the tines to open up when pressure is applied 2) to give enough rigidity to allow for snap back to the original shape.

Probably all common sense, but by shaving off material from across the entire lateral area, you run the risk of losing the bracing and greatly increase the likelihood of easily springing the nib.

 

What I'm intend on doing before I try to get a few more nibs is to reach out to a couple of jewelers in the area and ask about adding material back to the nib in certain places to see if that adds any validity to the 'support beams' idea.

 

Just one of a few other methods of attack that I have brewing. I'll post some before and after pics of the nib later. No writing sample of the nib before though.

 

Nino

[Inky.Fingers]

With a thin nib, you can add rigidity by curving the nib, also adds the snap back. As I recalled gold dip pens always have a cylindrical shaped. Some dip pens are just cut out nib from a gold tube.

 

Having a wet noodler is not a bad thing. No pressure for writing Spencerian or English Round hand.

 

Similar concept of curved nibs is in architecture, "U" or H shaped provides more support that a straight piece. More curves more stiff, more response.

 

Put some curves in em babe! And post some picture.

Edited May 19, 2016 by InkyTongue

[Pen Engineer]

 

May I shed some light on this topic. I just measured some of my nibs using my micrometer (DIAL CALIPER Tokyo Shizai). Two measurements were taken:

(i) APEX = One measurement was taken 2-3 mm from the nib tip, at the center of the nib.

(ii) BASE = Another measurement was taken 10 mm behind the nib hole, towards the base of the nib, at the center of the nib.

1. All my calligraphy dip nibs (including Zebra non-Titanium nibs, Brausse, and few Hiro):

APEX = BASE = 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

2. Fountain Pen Revolution #6 nib

APEX = BASE = 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

3. Jinhao #5 replacement nibs

APEX = BASE= 0.3mm (0.3mm throughout the length of the nib)

4. TWSBI Eco EF nib

APEX = BASE = 0.4mm (0.4mm throughout the length of the nib)

5. BOCK #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

6. JOWO #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

7. JINHAO #6 nib

APEX = 0.5mm thick, BASE = 0.3mm thick *

* The #6 nibs were thicker near the tip of the nib and thinner at the base of the nib.

CONCLUSIONS

~ It was noted that #6 Bock, Jowo and Jinhao nib thickness varied; they were thicker at their tip (0.5mm) and thinner at the base (0.3mm).

~ The remaining nibs had thickness that was consistent throughout their length.

~ Calligraphy nibs, #5 Jinhao nibs and #6 FPR nibs were 0.3mm thick throughout their length (0.3mm thick).

~ TWSBI Eco nib was 0.4mm thick throughout its length (0.4mm thick).

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah12/phzervas/5C1DAB58-8122-44E4-AF88-90AB621FF207_zpshmrqytnf.jpg

Picture of the dial calipers used for measuring the nib thickness, in this instance this is a stainless steel #6 F Bock nib.

PS: Initial post had measurements inadvertently reported in mm instead of tenths of a mm, which was the correct unit of my measurements. Many thanks to forum members for kindly pointing this out to me.

there is a reason for that....

it work-hardens the base of the nib, it is stronger and fits better...

the thickness of the tines makes them open more linear, instead of curved.