Adding Flex To A 14K Nib, Again

[jar]

Well, something doesn't compute. One the one hand, people are saying that vintage flex nibs are becoming more expensive because of demand, but on the other hand, the reason they are no longer made is because there's no demand.

 

The price quoted in Post 17 is in line with other gold nibs, so I am missing something.

Sure it computes.

 

The major companies would need to see a far higher demand for flexible nibs than is apparent. So they don't bother making them.

 

There is an ever decreasing supply of vintage flexible nib pens out there and so even the small demand that does exist is sufficient to keep prices high.

 

But often what is seen is that folk do not even want to pay the really reasonable prices asked by the few people that actually have a clue what a flexible nib pen really is; the buyers complain those prices are too high.

 

Well sorry Charley but that is called reality. There are lots of folk that will sell what they claim is a flexible nib, even show videos of the abuse they market.

 

But the end is there really are only a fairly small number of reliable sellers I'd trust enough to buy from. None sell modern pens.

[FarmBoy]

Jar we must be drinking the same koolaid.

[jar]

Jar we must be drinking the same koolaid.

And possible even seen some of the same "modified flex nibs".

[vorpal]

Send me a design specification and we can discuss terms and conditions.

 

I don't know enough about metallurgy or fountain pen nibs to do that. However, within five years, I would bet that 3D-printing will step into the breach.

[vorpal]

Sure it computes.

 

The major companies would need to see a far higher demand for flexible nibs than is apparent. So they don't bother making them.

 

There is an ever decreasing supply of vintage flexible nib pens out there and so even the small demand that does exist is sufficient to keep prices high.

 

But often what is seen is that folk do not even want to pay the really reasonable prices asked by the few people that actually have a clue what a flexible nib pen really is; the buyers complain those prices are too high.

 

Well sorry Charley but that is called reality. There are lots of folk that will sell what they claim is a flexible nib, even show videos of the abuse they market.

 

But the end is there really are only a fairly small number of reliable sellers I'd trust enough to buy from. None sell modern pens.

 

Well then, perhaps there's a Kickstarter waiting in the wings for some enterprising individual.

[Pen Engineer]

from an ingeneer's point of view...

 

The modulus of elasticity of stainless steel for nibs is about three times higher than that of gold nibs. For explanation see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_%28physics%29

 

That means, steel can be flexed more, without residual deformation. If both nibs are of the same geometry / design, the forces for flexing of the steel nib is much higher (to be expected). What to do? Make the thickness of the steel nib thinner at the area, where the flexing is possible. See =>> calligraphy and drawing nibs.

 

For further information about nibs, come and read my article

https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/fountain-pen-nib-function-material-manufacture/

[Dr. Saleem Ali]

I have a very very limited experiance of smoothing some 14 k nibs on sand-paper .The end result was a disappointment !.Since then I learned that this was not my cup of tea and I quitted .Anything done without training or observation is deemed to faliure at least or disaster at worst.Since the nib is the heart of fp so the heart is not something to play around but to care otherwise it is likely to be broken .This is my humble conclusion of the debate .Experts are always experts and their advice needs careful attention .My greetings to all nibmeisters ,junniors or seniors .

Edited May 14, 2016 by Dr. Saleem Ali

[jar]

 

Well then, perhaps there's a Kickstarter waiting in the wings for some enterprising individual.

Only if the person actually knows something about flexible nibs and again, my experience has said there are only a few of those and they are busy selling existing flexible nib pens.

[AAAndrew]

from an ingeneer's point of view...

 

The modulus of elasticity of stainless steel for nibs is about three times higher than that of gold nibs. For explanation see

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_%28physics%29

 

That means, steel can be flexed more, without residual deformation. If both nibs are of the same geometry / design, the forces for flexing of the steel nib is much higher (to be expected). What to do? Make the thickness of the steel nib thinner at the area, where the flexing is possible. See =>> calligraphy and drawing nibs.

 

For further information about nibs, come and read my article

https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/fountain-pen-nib-function-material-manufacture/

 

Even a small amount of experience can show this to be true. The most flexible ones also had hand-grinds across the tines just shy of the tip up to the hole and down to the side slits. This took off material to increase flexibility.

 

Maybe what we need is a non-corroding steel nib with the flexibility of the classic steel nib. Right now people are using titanium coated Zebra G's in pens (Desiderata as well as others) and they're great. But they eventually need to be replaced.

 

If we can focus the materials engineers onto that issue, or use titanium or another metal with equal elasticity that won't corrode when in constant contact with ink, or can be easily switched out and cheaply made, ... Gold is not the only answer anymore.

[terim]

Is this nib really being stressed that much? I don't see a very aggressive spreading of the tines in the photos.

 

These are not expensive vintage nibs Nino is working on, they are very bland modern 14k nibs. But there are plenty of cheap vintage nibs that can be played with and even ruined without there being a shortage for restorers.

[Mauricio]

Is this nib really being stressed that much? I don't see a very aggressive spreading of the tines in the photos.

 

These are not expensive vintage nibs Nino is working on, they are very bland modern 14k nibs. But there are plenty of cheap vintage nibs that can be played with and even ruined without there being a shortage for restorers.

 

Hi Teri,

 

Long time no see. Hope you are doing well!

 

Yes, that nib is a firm nib and it is being pushed way beyond what that nib was designed and manufactured for. If you contact the manufacturer of any 14k nib, show them that picture and ask them to honor the warranty, they certainly will refuse it based on product abuse by its user.

 

There is absolutely no 14k firm nib that should be pushed like the OP did to try to spread the tines. They are not manufactured for such purposes. If you want to flex a nib purchase a real flex nib. If you want flex on the cheap buy dip nibs. If you want junk, gimmicks, and substandard so-called "modern flex nibs", then follow the advice of folks who do not really understand about flex nibs and sellers that are misleading a potential buyer or user.

 

Be well Teri!

[FarmBoy]

Perhaps we could say making a nib thinner by removing material doesn't add flex but allows the nib to bend easier. ?

[Inky.Fingers]

Yes. That is it. Also cutting notches on the sides, to lessen the pressure required to flex. Less material, less forece to flex. However, over flexing or pushing too hard will spring the nib.

 

Use a hammer to thin the material is more effective, as this act of hardening the nib, allows better spring back, like vintage nibs.

 

Or just bake it as described above (different alloy, different temp and time required) age hardening.

[Pen Engineer]

Perhaps we could say making a nib thinner by removing material doesn't add flex but allows the nib to bend easier. ?

sure, making it thinner requires less force to bend nib and spread the tines, however, if the bending is beyond the elastic range, the nib will remain bent. As I said before, steel has a higher range of elastic deformation.

[Pen Engineer]

 

Maybe what we need is a non-corroding steel nib with the flexibility of the classic steel nib. Right now people are using titanium coated Zebra G's in pens (Desiderata as well as others) and they're great. But they eventually need to be replaced.

 

If we can focus the materials engineers onto that issue, or use titanium or another metal with equal elasticity that won't corrode when in constant contact with ink, or can be easily switched out and cheaply made, ... Gold is not the only answer anymore.

steel nibs of today are made from stainless steel (no-corrosive)

 

titanium plasma coated pens we did in the seventies

[Pen Engineer]

Yes. That is it. Also cutting notches on the sides, to lessen the pressure required to flex. Less material, less forece to flex. However, over flexing or pushing too hard will spring the nib.

 

Use a hammer to thin the material is more effective, as this act of hardening the nib, allows better spring back, like vintage nibs.

 

Or just bake it as described above (different alloy, different temp and time required) age hardening.

cutting notches, thinner material are good ideas. As you said, one cannot get around the modulus of elasticity.

 

During the manufacturing of the nib the material is compressed (hammered) between 30 - 50%... still today.

 

Have a look at my blog about nibs =>> https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/fountain-pen-nib-function-material-manufacture/

 

Baking (annealing) makes materials softer. Hardening happens at temperatures over 800 degrees Celsius and need abrupt cooling down afterwards.

[Uncial]

I blame Noodler's and Youtube.

 

Now let me clarify that before I get myself banned! I love my Ahab's and appreciate what has been done with the rest of that range of 'flex' nibs. They are quite fun to tinker with, but it needs a lot of muscle and quality paper to 'flex'. Noodler's isn't the only one by any stretch of the imagination; there is an offering from FPR, a couple of others from Stipula, and Omas (God rest its soul) marketed nibs as 'extra flessibile'. In reality though, I think most people probably start at the Noodler's end of things.I think Nathan had a great idea; possibly not the best writing instrument in the world (which has likely been debated here many times), but one that was marketed as a 'flexible' nib that took the pressure of an elephant to spring. That way, a lot of us could play around and have fun for a bit without destroying something that could never be replaced.

 

Then came the numerous videos on Youtube of folks with their fancy restored vintage pens and their lovely wet noodle nibs that flopped all over the page like a brush end with all the grace of a professional ballerina. It's not surprising that all those little noodleheads thought, 'Oooooo, I gotta get me one of those'. Demand for the flexible nib seemed to skyrocket in a flash. Before we could blink, FPN (and other forums) were all ablaze with posts about flexible nibs and every last vintage pen sold on ebay suddenly had 'flex'; even pens that were never made with flexible nibs suddenly seemed to have 'full flex'. I can only imagine the deep disappointment of all those buyers, or perhaps they genuinely believe that flex is attained through elephantine pressure. I suspect that latter is the case, unfortunately.

 

I will freely admit I have contributed to this problem. I own a wet noodle on a Waterman 52, It is a joy to write with but alas, I lack much of the skill to use it correctly and its point is not fine enough for my liking - not that it has ever stopped me using it. The problem is, now that I have been spoiled, I sometimes indulge in the chase for 'flex' but for 99% of the time I am bitterly disappointed. I have discovered that many, many people have never written with a wet noodle and I suspect there are many people who have never actually written with a flexible nib other than the likes of Noodler's. But because they have written with Noodler's they think that pressure of that type is an acceptable norm for 'flex'. As a result they either sell pens as 'flexible' that are in fact firm, or they buy 'flexible' nibs from ebay and the like, and damage what are actually firm nibs within a very short time. It would possibly be rash of me to say that most sellers on ebay of these 'flexible' nibs are dishonest and simply profiteering on ignorance. I'd much prefer to believe that they are simply as ignorant as their buyers, but that is becoming harder to believe. The buyers are almost certainly ignorant, although even when you do all the research and ask all the right questions, it is very, very easy to be stung.

 

So perhaps moaning about it won't actually fix it. The fact is that more and more vintage flex and firm nibs are being lost every week - if not every day. There are firm nibs that are cracking and breaking. There are flexible nibs that are pushed too hard for too long that crease and even snap or spring. The pool of available nibs is decreasing very, very fast. You can see this from the sellers that sell outside ebay. I know someone who buys from a man in the UK who repairs and restores vintage pens. Most of them are too tiny or too thin for my friend's taste or not a brand they are overly excited about and so resisted the urge to buy from those advertised in his bi-monthly email notification. Within about two months, about a year and half ago, his prices suddenly tripled. They emailed him to ask him why and they were told that in a period of six months he had all of the pens sold returned for damaged nibs; most of which were damaged beyond repair by ham fisted writers trying to full flex a pen that was semi-flex. He felt that it wasn't worth his while putting in all of this work to restore these pens and have someone ruin them within days of getting them. I found that rather depressing and the old saying of "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" rang true.

 

For those who experiment with modern nibs to put 'flex' on them I say, 'have at it'. It's a good way to learn and might produce some half decent results. The problem is that it will only produce semi-flex at best and that should be borne in mind. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but the modern pens I own or have tested, advertised as 'flexible' or those modified have only ever been semi-flex at best and many are simply 'soft nibs' and not what I would call flexible at all. Part of the issue may be that my wet noodle is the ultimate standard, so i'm willing to accept I may have a very skewed view on this. To start playing with vintage nibs is a whole other ball game. I guess this comes down to the battle between conservation and restoration. Personally I fall to the conservation side of things. I would like my vintage pens of the future to have their original nibs, but I understand that there are some who are not really bothered by that. What I would ask is that those who modify vintage and all those who sell and buy 'flex' nibs think a little of the desires of those who would like to be able to have vintage pens in the future with their original nibs.

 

So how can we do that? I suspect the best way is simply through knowledge. It is clear that 'flex' is something that is interesting a lot of people, that there is demand for it, that those who produce modern pens today shy away from it to a large degree because of the risks of so many returns of broken pens. I wonder if a sub-forum specifically about flex (both for fountain pens and dip pens) would be useful in stemming the tide of broken nibs, ignorant or dishonest sellers and disappointed writers/buyers? The sub-forum could have pinned topics about what the range of flex is on certain pens and what to expect, the things to avoid at all costs and what to look out for. I can think of at least two people who could moderate such a sub-forum whose knowledge and expertise would match it well. I am loathe to name them in case I get hate mail .

 

It seems I took a very long time to get to my point so I do apologise for the length of this post, but it is something that has been on my mind for a while and seems to crop up a little more than periodically on this forum. Perhaps there is merit in the suggestion; perhaps not. I just thought I'd put it out there.

[Inky.Fingers]

Uncial. Well put and to the point. Just one addition: Writing with flex was originally with a dip pen. Opportunist wants you to believe you can replicate this on fountain pens (not that it is impossible, but a rarity.)

 

As you said, flex writing takes discipline and at least 1 year of self torture. That is when done properly with a dip pen. Pressure required to flex varies greatly on dip pen depending on maker and model. Aaandrew have dwell into this for about a year now, me following him.

 

For FPN, it is so convenient to carry a flex pen around and show off your flex...Cool factor. Hence, the opportunist (myself guilty as charged). I post lots of pen that I bought with "flex"...but as you said at best these are semiflex with one exception. When the nib is actually dip pen nib, it really is a joy to write with. None, absolutely none of the " wet noodler" that I bought is able to produce flex as a dip pen. Constant struggle with railroading and hand fatigue is inevitable.

 

I conclude: if ya want to flex, dip it!

Don't waste ya harrd earned money.

 

 

Now back to the OP topic. This is how I add flex to my Vintage nib... Cut here, sand the bottom off here, just like the pros, yea! Eureka! I have a Super..Uber Flex FP. Who wants it!!!??? Wait a minute.. This pen looks exactly like a dip pen!! (bleep)!

Edited May 16, 2016 by InkyTongue

[AAAndrew]

In an interesting coincidence, I just ran into a material I'm sure if familiar to engineers here, but was new to me: Nitinol or nickel titanium. It has higher shape memory and elasticity than steel. It's corrosion resistant enough to be used in medical devices, more than stainless steel.

 

While I'm sure it's expensive, I doubt it's more than gold, and while tooling may be expensive to set up, I wonder if it would be near what it would take to make a gold flexible nib.

 

You can also coat in gold, silver, nickle or copper for those who want the bling. I wonder with it's wear resistance if you would even need extra tipping materials?

 

I think the answer lies in science, not just trying to make a nib using the same old materials of gold (not suited for flexing) or steel (not suited to constant exposure to inks).

[Inky.Fingers]

I have some Nitinol tubing that I tried out as dip pen. It does not have the snap back as your steel dip pens. Flex but not snap.

 

So no go.

Edited May 16, 2016 by InkyTongue