Forgery-Proof/document Ink

[FountainPenNovice]

Greetings one and all,

 

So, I've got a Lamy 2000 (F-nib) which I want to "induct" in my EDC. It'll be required to sign documents etc. and also write on varying grades of paper, some of very poor quality. I'm thinking of using Noodlers Bad Belted Kingfisher, which I like, but which gives me nib creep on my Pilot VP (M-Nib) and so I expect it to do the same on my Lamy 2K (F-nib).

 

But in an ideal world, I would want a "safe" forgery-proof ink (similar to that in a Pilot Signo 207 series Gel pen) which doesn't give me nib creep on my Lamy 2000.

 

I know R&K has document ink (Dunkelblau, for example) which seems similar in performance to the Noodler's warden series; then there's Diamine with the Blue-Black Registrar ink. I could also consider the Mont Blanc Permanent series.

 

Any thoughts..suggestions?

 

 

 

[FountainPenNovice]

Sorry, correction, that should read "Uniball" Signo Series....

[PaganArcher]

The only truly "forge proof" inks I know of are the Noodler's Warden line, of which you have one. Mixed bottle by bottle by Nathan according to his website. But they do not play well with paper at all.

[lapis]

Rohrer & Klingner Document inks: http://www.rohrer-klingner.de/index.php?id=47&L=1

De Atramentis Document inks: http://www.de-atramentis.com/document-ink-/

Montblanc Permanent Blue and Permanent Black: http://www.montblanc.com/en-ca/collection/refills/writing-accessories.html?=undefined&filters=468123540

 

I can recommend all of these and they are all paper friendly ... and... their batch quality leaves nothing to be desired...

 

Mike

[wascallyrabbit]

my thinking is any of the iron galls, document, warden or permanent inks are going to be far more resistant than the ball points others will be signing in. i also think they will be more durable than the ink used to print the document.

[Fuzzy_Bear]

Noodler's Bulletproof is the classification you are looking for.

 

From the website:

Bulletproof refers to any Noodlers Ink that resists all the known tools of a forger, UV light, UV light wands, bleaches, alcohols, solvents, petrochemicals, oven cleaners, carpet cleaners, carpet stain lifters, and of coursethey are also waterproof once permitted to dry upon cellulose paper. Some inks are more bulletproof than others generally in descending order (most bulletproof with the most testing to less bulletproof): blacks, blues, yellows, invisible (blue ghost and White Whale), greens, browns, purples, reds.all are equally bulletproof with one exception: the resistance to strong industrial bleaches to the point where the paper structure itself decomposes. Reds are prone to more fading when exposed to strong bleaches (sometimes fading to a yellow) than the other colors.

[Tasmith]

Been using Montblanc Permanent Blue for almost two years in my Montblanc 146 with a .56mm cursive italic and Waterman Kultur with a fine nib. Well behaved and I really like using it in these pens.

 

I use Noodler's X-Feather in my Rotring Art Pens, extra fine through 1.9mm. Works well, although when I erase pencil guide lines on envelopes it can smear at times which I find very annoying. I recently bought Montblanc Permanent Black to replace it it (as the Permanent Blue does not smear), but have not had a chance to use it.

 

However, Montblanc Permanent Blue it did not work well at all in my Pilot Decimo (same nib unit as the Vanishing Point) with a fine nib. Would dry out and gum up the nib and feed after sitting a day or so causing hard starts and me having to wipe the nib and feed clean to get it writing. I now use Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue in the Decimo and have never had any hard starts. Flows perfectly even if I haven't used the pen in a few days.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Tasmith

[zwack]

I have bad black moccasin, bad blue heron, bad belted kingfisher... all of them work well for me,

 

If they are overkill there is also legal lapis.

 

Nib creep is something that seems to happen a little on some of my pens but it d oesn't bother me.

 

I haven't found too many papers thatnhave serious issues with any of the above other than feathering from a pad that seems to feather with almost anymfountain pen ink.

[LeonW]

Montblanc Permanent Black, my bottle is running low, I will replace with same.

[FountainPenNovice]

my thinking is any of the iron galls, document, warden or permanent inks are going to be far more resistant than the ball points others will be signing in. i also think they will be more durable than the ink used to print the document.

 

You think the fountain pen permanents and even iron galls are more resistant than ball points? I think the the warden series would be, but I didn't think the iron galls could hold up as good against highly viscous ball point inks, especially the Uniball gel ones. I always thought fountain pens were at a disadvantage given that their inks had to have good fluidity and flow. I hope your right though.

Edited May 1, 2016 by FountainPenNovice

[FountainPenNovice]

The only truly "forge proof" inks I know of are the Noodler's Warden line, of which you have one. Mixed bottle by bottle by Nathan according to his website. But they do not play well with paper at al

 

Noodler's Bulletproof is the classification you are looking for.

 

From the website:

Bulletproof refers to any Noodlers Ink that resists all the known tools of a forger, UV light, UV light wands, bleaches, alcohols, solvents, petrochemicals, oven cleaners, carpet cleaners, carpet stain lifters, and of coursethey are also waterproof once permitted to dry upon cellulose paper. Some inks are more bulletproof than others generally in descending order (most bulletproof with the most testing to less bulletproof): blacks, blues, yellows, invisible (blue ghost and White Whale), greens, browns, purples, reds.all are equally bulletproof with one exception: the resistance to strong industrial bleaches to the point where the paper structure itself decomposes. Reds are prone to more fading when exposed to strong bleaches (sometimes fading to a yellow) than the other colors.

I just filled my Lamy 2000 (F) with the BBK in the warden series and strangely enough I actually liked the bluish patina of the nib creep in comparison to how in looked on the Gold-on-gold vanishing point. So this I can live with.

 

And I love the illustrations on the bottle: "BBK: Je parle canadien! squawk...judge: "what we have here is a failure to communicate!"

[FountainPenNovice]

Rohrer & Klingner Document inks: http://www.rohrer-klingner.de/index.php?id=47&L=1

De Atramentis Document inks: http://www.de-atramentis.com/document-ink-/

Montblanc Permanent Blue and Permanent Black: http://www.montblanc.com/en-ca/collection/refills/writing-accessories.html?=undefined&filters=468123540

 

I can recommend all of these and they are all paper friendly ... and... their batch quality leaves nothing to be desired...

 

Mike

 

Been using Montblanc Permanent Blue for almost two years in my Montblanc 146 with a .56mm cursive italic and Waterman Kultur with a fine nib. Well behaved and I really like using it in these pens.

 

I use Noodler's X-Feather in my Rotring Art Pens, extra fine through 1.9mm. Works well, although when I erase pencil guide lines on envelopes it can smear at times which I find very annoying. I recently bought Montblanc Permanent Black to replace it it (as the Permanent Blue does not smear), but have not had a chance to use it.

 

However, Montblanc Permanent Blue it did not work well at all in my Pilot Decimo (same nib unit as the Vanishing Point) with a fine nib. Would dry out and gum up the nib and feed after sitting a day or so causing hard starts and me having to wipe the nib and feed clean to get it writing. I now use Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue in the Decimo and have never had any hard starts. Flows perfectly even if I haven't used the pen in a few days.

R&K and the De Atramentis look solid. I love the MB bottles but am concerned about some of the negativity surrounding iron gall inks (what a cool classification though). But I'm guessing that stainless steel parts in the lamy 2k will work their wonder. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I just wish like could work out the Mont Blanc DIN ISO certificate code- R&K have an explanatory letter up on their website for document inks but the ISO classification testing codes are different. Anyway, don't really want to go to far deep down that particular rabbit hole.

[inkstainedruth]

I wasn't all that impressed with the De Atramentis Document inks I've tried (Turquoise, Red, and Fuchsia -- they have a lot of spread and some bleedthrough, and the Red was a hideous salmon pink color; the Archive Black was better in that respect but had flow issues -- it was quite dry and somewhat scratchy). I got less spread with the R&K Documentus inks I"ve tried (Dunkelblau and Hellblau); of the two, I like the latter enough to get a full bottle (the Dunkelblau was sort of flat looking). As a caveat, I must say I haven't tried all the colors of either brand yet.

The only one of the Warden series I've tried was BBK, and the color didn't particularly wow me; if I'm going to use a teal-leaning blue black with some permanence, I'll stick to 54th Massachusetts.

If you're concerned about permanence, I trust signing checks with Noodler's El Lawrence and the aforementioned 54th MA, and with Kung Te Cheng (but it's got its *own* special behavior issues...). I trust Upper Ganges River, too, but hated the color -- a chalky light blue. If you have to stick to black for some reason, I prefer Heart of Darkness over the "standard" Noodler's Black -- it's a little better behaved and dries faster. Noodler's Walnut is good in a wet pen, but a lot of banks frown on you using anything other than blue or black (I cheat with both El Lawrence and KTC because they're *almost* black and *almost* dark blue... but I suspect that a lot of places might look askance at a brown ink, even one that dark).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: I don't have the pen you're planning to use, so I can't say how any of the inks I've mentioned will work in combination; I did have someone at Goulet Pens say that her husband uses Heart of Darkness in his Vanishing Point (so when I give my husband the almost new one I picked up in an antiques store last week, I may try him out with that ink since I already have a bottle of it).

Edited May 1, 2016 by inkstainedruth

[lapis]

 

.... but am concerned about some of the negativity surrounding iron gall inks (what a cool classification though).... Anyway, don't really want to go to far deep down that particular rabbit hole.

Don't worry about those two MB inks because they don't have any iron gall in them at all. Also, forget the DIN ISO certification stuff. That's all just legal verification and can vary from company to company -- depending on what they want to get tested -- and IMO as far as the actual writer using the FP is concerned, uninteresting.

 

Mike

[wascallyrabbit]

the gel pens are different than the standard ballpoint. i now the pilot g2 gel is supposed to be a permeant type ink. the uni you mentioned is also gel type so could be a permeant ink as well. a true iron gall can't be removed from the paper without damage to the fibers of the paper.

 

To be considered permanent the ink has to comply with certain standards. The international certification is ISO 12757-2.

[carlos.q]

To be considered permanent the ink has to comply with certain standards. The international certification is ISO 12757-2.

ISO 12757-2 is used for ballpoint inks.

ISO 14145-2 is used for rollerball inks.

The latter certification is used by Montblanc for their permanent blue and black inks as (apparently) there is no ISO certification for FP inks.

[wascallyrabbit]

thanks carlos didn't realize they were different. wonder why there is not one for fountain pen ink.

[dcwaites]

I wouldn't include Iron Gall inks as forgery-proof, as bleach removes it quite easily.

 

You might want to try Koh-i-noor Document Blue, as it is a Certified Document ink, and exhibits little, if any, nib creep.

I find that pretty well all the Bulletproof and Wardens inks show nib creep on gold nibs.

[aeba]

Don't worry about those two MB inks because they don't have any iron gall in them at all. Also, forget the DIN ISO certification stuff. That's all just legal verification and can vary from company to company -- depending on what they want to get tested -- and IMO as far as the actual writer using the FP is concerned, uninteresting.

 

Mike

Could I get a source for that claim?

[Arkanabar]

For checks, which have bleach-sensitive printing on them, nigh unto any FP ink is safe enough. They can be removed with bleach, but the printing on the check will be also. Many BP inks, except those blacks colored with carbon black, can be lifted from a check without affecting the printing thereon.

IG inks vanish almost instantly when exposed to bleach. It turns the tannoferrogallic acid precipitate transparent.

For total permanency and everything-proofness, I always recommend Heart of Darkness. I used it in a Hero 616, so no nib creep would have been evident anyway. While HoD isn't certified the way the Warden line is, I've never heard of anyone lifting it from paper with anything. I've had Pilot G2 black gel ink run when soaked long-term. (Used on a 3x5 card, placed in an AOL CD tin, used as a coaster.)