Best Steel Nibs

[ksm]

tell me, in technical terms, what is smoothness? feel?

 

for example: consistency of performance = equal line width? Or ... a 100 mm long line must not vary in width more than 10%

 

By consistency of performance I would understand consistent parameters of different nibs of the same model.

 

Those parameters may include line width, the amount of force needed to start ink flow (i.e. lack of so called baby bottom), but also ink flow (for nibs sold with feeds) and "feel".

 

For me the feel means two properties:

 

• smoothness/feedback, understood as friction and resulting vibrations passed onto nib and pen.

   

   

• "springiness" of nib, described by "yield" of the nib as a function of downward force applied onto pen (without permanent deformation).

   

   

Edited June 20, 2016 by ksm

[corgicoupe]

Back when I first joined this forum I told a story about buying a Targa about 1980. It had a steel nib (1001). I decided that I wanted a second pen and was undecided between a 1002 (steel nib) and a 1003 (gold nib), which was significantly more expensive (for me) at the time. So I wrote to Sheaffer and asked about the difference. I received an answer from someone who was a production manager? His answer was that their testing revealed essentially no difference between the two nibs. Someone posted a copy of that letter for me on this forum, but I don't have the link. That opinion is perhaps worth considering.

[corgicoupe]

Hello Fountain Pen Friends

I like to tell you, that for now at least, the final chapter on nibs has been completed. Here, I talk about, how all the technicalities we discussed before, are applied to the design of nibs.

I hope, you will have many questions, so I can answer them and be sure that you got the idea. But first, I would like to invite you to visit this page

 

How to... for Nibs

and as always

If you haven't yet taken the time to follow the suggested link, then I encourage you to do so. I have attempted in several threads about nib flex to contribute knowledge about elastic modulus and nib geometry (from my study as a metallurgist in the 1960s and 1970s) but Pen Engineer has provided what you need to understand from the perspective of a materials engineer AND a pen designer. His blog will light some lamps for you, even if it doesn't change your subjective feel about fountain pen nibs.

[Proto]

I'm a big fan of Jowo steel nibs, either on pens or ones purchased separately (like the ones from Goulet Pens).

[Pen Engineer]

 

 

By consistency of performance I would understand consistent parameters of different nibs of the same model.

 

Those parameters may include line width, the amount of force needed to start ink flow (i.e. lack of so called baby bottom), but also ink flow (for nibs sold with feeds) and "feel".

 

For me the feel means two properties:

 

• smoothness/feedback, understood as friction and resulting vibrations passed onto nib and pen.

   

   

• "springiness" of nib, described by "yield" of the nib as a function of downward force applied onto pen (without permanent deformation).

   

   

 

Thank you for your reply....

 

I understand your points of characterising the different criteria...

 

As the maker of something and wanting to test results and compare with other products from the same or other companies, ingeneers need measurable criteria...

 

you say: consistency of performance parameters..... what are they? And how can they be measured?

 

Like in my example for consistency of line width, for example: "The variation of line width of a 100 mm long line should be less than 10%"

These are performance parameters, which can be measured. We can compare nibs and writers on different paper at different climates etc.

We can make classifications and say (for example): If the line width variation is within 10% it is a good performance, above 10% to 15% it is an acceptable performance and above is not acceptable.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Pen Engineer]

Back when I first joined this forum I told a story about buying a Targa about 1980. It had a steel nib (1001). I decided that I wanted a second pen and was undecided between a 1002 (steel nib) and a 1003 (gold nib), which was significantly more expensive (for me) at the time. So I wrote to Sheaffer and asked about the difference. I received an answer from someone who was a production manager? His answer was that their testing revealed essentially no difference between the two nibs. Someone posted a copy of that letter for me on this forum, but I don't have the link. That opinion is perhaps worth considering.

Sheaffer's answer sounds like a sweeping statement. Did they say, what they actually measured?

 

In your following post I read that you have a background in metallurgy. Then you know that two materials can't be "...essentially not different"

[Pen Engineer]

If you haven't yet taken the time to follow the suggested link, then I encourage you to do so. I have attempted in several threads about nib flex to contribute knowledge about elastic modulus and nib geometry (from my study as a metallurgist in the 1960s and 1970s) but Pen Engineer has provided what you need to understand from the perspective of a materials engineer AND a pen designer. His blog will light some lamps for you, even if it doesn't change your subjective feel about fountain pen nibs.

oooooh!

 

Thanks for that.

 

Would you mind pasting / posting that comment on my blog?

[corgicoupe]

Sheaffer's answer sounds like a sweeping statement. Did they say, what they actually measured?

 

In your following post I read that you have a background in metallurgy. Then you know that two materials can't be "...essentially not different"

What I meant to say was that the two nibs were not essentially different in writing characteristics, according to the letter below. I said in several posts that the nib geometry had the greatest influence on flexibility.

 

Here is a copy of the original from 34 years ago, about the time you were testing nibs...

 

 

[corgicoupe]

oooooh!

 

Thanks for that.

 

Would you mind pasting / posting that comment on my blog?

I posted it, but haven't the foggiest idea where it went. Somewhere in the Outback?

[Pen Engineer]

What I meant to say was that the two nibs were not essentially different in writing characteristics, according to the letter below. I said in several posts that the nib geometry had the greatest influence on flexibility.

 

Here is a copy of the original from 34 years ago, about the time you were testing nibs...

 

 

Thanks...very interesting...satisfaction of the ego! Nicely said.

 

And their observation is correct. One could describe the gold nib writing behaviour as a bit "wetter". Gold nibs are more responsive to changes in writing pressure.

 

What I find amazing is that you still have a letter from 34 years ago. I am like that in my workshop, can't throw anything away. You can imagine the mess?

[Pen Engineer]

I posted it, but haven't the foggiest idea where it went. Somewhere in the Outback?

Thanks again, yes it arrived, just saw it. I will approve it so it will show on the page.

[ksm]

you say: consistency of performance parameters..... what are they? And how can they be measured?

The problem is: I'm not “technical enough” (I'm a software developer, my experience with measurements is limited to the basis of electricity and semiconductors).

 

In my opinion the way to set measurement standards would be “reverse engineering” people preferences. One would have to start with nibs and descriptive opinions on those nibs, then do measurements and based on those measurements set standards.

 

There are some “standards” that knowledgable fountain pen users can set, like for example relation between width of thick and thin strokes for italic nib, but for example difference between “catchiness” of corners between italic and cursive italic nib would have to be translated from user's feel into friction reading for thin stroke with nib twisted to specific angle and specific value of downward pressure on pen.

[Pen Engineer]

The problem is: I'm not “technical enough” (I'm a software developer, my experience with measurements is limited to the basis of electricity and semiconductors).

 

In my opinion the way to set measurement standards would be “reverse engineering” people preferences. One would have to start with nibs and descriptive opinions on those nibs, then do measurements and based on those measurements set standards.

 

There are some “standards” that knowledgable fountain pen users can set, like for example relation between width of thick and thin strokes for italic nib, but for example difference between “catchiness” of corners between italic and cursive italic nib would have to be translated from user's feel into friction reading for thin stroke with nib twisted to specific angle and specific value of downward pressure on pen.

Yes, you make me smile, thanks.

 

And yes, you are right, "reverse ingeneering" was the way I got my data. But dear ol' me! What a job!

 

And in one way, luckily, fountain pen writers are mostly people with strong personal preferences. And as we know through the existence of this website, they are active in promoting their thoughts and ideas, and also active to make them come true by experimenting and tinkering until they get what they (individually) want.

 

Thanks again

[corgicoupe]

Thanks again, yes it arrived, just saw it. I will approve it so it will show on the page.

Pleas explain nib-rolled-profile.jpg, figure 8 in how to...

 

Explain the gold and stainless layers. What is the top layer? How do you roll two thicknesses? Or is this the function of the stainless? Is this rolled gold plate? TIA.

[Randal6393]

Well, the original question was none-technical. What is the best steel nib? Seems to be looking for an objective answer to a subjective question. The best steel nib? The one you like the most and write with best.

 

I use italic nibs almost exclusively, in pens from very cheap ($10.00 Diplomats, Online school pens, Noodler pens) to Pelikan M200's, Lamy 2000's, and Ranga ebonites with custom nibs. Almost every nib I own writes comfortably and well. Each has required a certain amount of honing with a hand-held stone. Some have needed major grinds to work out.

 

So, the best way to see if you like a pen is to write with it. Nothing else supplies the information needed. The rest is nice technical knowledge but secondary to the use of the pen.

 

Oh, thanks to Amadeus W. Found your blog a wealth of information.

 

Best of luck,

[corgicoupe]

Well, the original question was none-technical. What is the best steel nib? Seems to be looking for an objective answer to a subjective question. The best steel nib? The one you like the most and write with best.

I use italic nibs almost exclusively, in pens from very cheap ($10.00 Diplomats, Online school pens, Noodler pens) to Pelikan M200's, Lamy 2000's, and Ranga ebonites with custom nibs. Almost every nib I own writes comfortably and well. Each has required a certain amount of honing with a hand-held stone. Some have needed major grinds to work out.

So, the best way to see if you like a pen is to write with it. Nothing else supplies the information needed. The rest is nice technical knowledge but secondary to the use of the pen.

Oh, thanks to Amadeus W. Found your blog a wealth of information.

Best of luck,

Yes, the blog is worth the read.

 

Susan Wirth gave a short talk at the recent pen show in Atlanta, claiming (with ink-stained fingers) that these nibs will improve your handwriting. So, I acquired a 2284 for one of my Esterbrook pens. I have made several attempts, but don't see any great improvement. What's the secret, Randal?

[ksm]

The secret is in Cursive Italic. OpenLibrary has Tom Gourdie's book on italic handwriting available for online reading.

[milkb0at]

Pleas explain nib-rolled-profile.jpg, figure 8 in how to...

 

Explain the gold and stainless layers. What is the top layer? How do you roll two thicknesses? Or is this the function of the stainless? Is this rolled gold plate? TIA.

 

The diagram is showing that for the same nib shape, you can roll either gold or steel. (So it's not meant to show both being rolled at the same time.) The gold stock is short and thick, the steel stock is longer and thinner.

 

In the Material Technology page it explains that the different stock thicknesses are because steel work hardens quicker, so needs a sheet that's closer in thickness to the final nib thickness.

[corgicoupe]

Now that does clear it up. Thanks.

[corgicoupe]

The secret is in Cursive Italic. OpenLibrary has Tom Gourdie's book on italic handwriting available for online reading.

Just went there, and there is nothing available for reading online.

 

The Italic Handwriting is available on Amazon.com for $140.00.

 

Am I missing a source?