Proper Pen-Holding Position?

[Rednaxela]

Ah I see. So I understand the 'start all over' remark was about leaving behind the strictly traditional grip.

 

Does that mean you have settled on the Arm Movement Method one now, or are you still trying other varieties?

 

Also, do you write with a dip pen? I don't, but wonder if that would give some new insights. Dip pens are much less forgiving than modern (fountain) pens as I am told. Perhaps things will fall in place when switching to a dip pen.

[Rednaxela]

By the way, this is Louis Madarasz holding his pen.

 

[Rednaxela]

 

Lessons in Ornamental Penmanship (Bloser), page 4.

[dhnz]

Notice these photos don't exhibit the traditional (knuckles up) position. After experimenting some, I've concluded the traditional position isn't even possible with a modern pen-you need a nib since the position is so flat. Google ergonomic oblique holders to see an example of this (these holders force the traditional position).

 

Apart from the photograph of Bloser signing Chris Costaras’s certificate, the photos do indeed show the traditional position. You can hold a modern pen this way, but the ink flow may be compromised; the flanges of oblique penholders are angled upwards to give the optimum nib-to-paper position.

 

As far as ergonomic holders go, they won’t stop you rolling your hand back over onto its side, so you still have to consciously work at the position. And some modern ergonomic holders – such as Jake Weidmann’s and Connie Chen’s – are not even designed for the traditional grip. I find it amusing that Weidmann has all this marketing blurb for his $350 resin holder claiming that he studied the grips of the old masters when designing it, and then you see him using it and he just rolls his hand over onto the side!

[dhnz]

As far as I can tell this isn't 'true' knuckles up either.

 

…

 

The position does work quite well for me though.

 

 

You’re right – that picture does not show the recommended traditional grip, but I don’t think they claim anywhere that it does. As far as I can see, It’s just a pretty picture they’ve included to break up the text and it is not meant to be a model for how to hold the pen. On the facing page of that textbook, however, is the diagram which you are meant to follow.

 

I did not realise that you were not using a dip pen. If someone wants to learn Spencerian, they really should be using an oblique dip pen.

 

I get that you find the traditional grip difficult and that you find it easier to rest on the side of your hand, but if you persist with the traditional grip you will not regret it.

Edited May 16, 2016 by dhnz

[dhnz]

Reading The New Spencerian Compendium and trying to follow their instruction seems impossible. "Tip of pen pointing to right shoulder" This angles the pen with the point to the right and even seems to block vision to what you're writing. I would love to see someone who writes in the traditional fashion to make a video.

 

By “tip of the pen”, they mean the non-writing end and, depending on who you read, it should point to between the right elbow and shoulder or above the right shoulder. Remember, the paper is positioned with the lines pretty much at right angles to your forearm, and your forearm makes an angle of between about 30 and 45 degrees with the edge of the table. See the way Chris Yoke holds the pen in his video. The penholder follows the direction of the forearm and thus points towards the elbow and shoulder. The pen point, however, does not, and it is clearly visible to the writer, with nothing blocked.

Edited May 16, 2016 by dhnz

[Rednaxela]

Youre right that picture does not show the recommended traditional grip, but I dont think they claim anywhere that it does. As far as I can see, Its just a pretty picture theyve included to break up the text and it is not meant to be a model for how to hold the pen. On the facing page of that textbook, however, is the diagram which you are meant to follow.

Agree, it probably is. The picture just caught my eye. The diagram and the rest of the book are clear enough indeed.

 

 

I did not realise that you were not using a dip pen. If someone wants to learn Spencerian, they really should be using an oblique dip pen.

I do now. With this pen there are so many new things to get used to, it's almost devastating. Hope to be on track again soon, to be able to just focus on learning the script.

 

 

I get that you find the traditional grip difficult and that you find it easier to rest on the side of your hand but if you persist with traditional grip you will not regret it.

Thanks for the encouragement, really appreciated. In fact I don't rest on the side of my hand any longer, only on the third and fourth finger however not always just on the nails, but sometimes on the fleshy part next to them on the same phalanges. I do have to push my wrist up every now and then, this is not entirely in my system yet. Though I certainly feel the benefit of doing it.

 

The Yoke video is great BTW!

[Rednaxela]

IAMPETH - How to Properly Hold the Oblique Pen

[mcorrea]

Very interesting thread.

 

I have a fairly off-topic quesiton? Is this grip specific to pointed pen or is the same grip beneficial for italic pen writing?

 

Thanks in advance,

Matias

[Rednaxela]

Not sure Matias. Inclined to say italic is done with a different grip, but I've been wrong before. For what it's worth, Lloyd Reynolds seems to hold his pen quite differently.

 

[Rednaxela]

This is my current grip when writing with my oblique holder.

 

 

Gliding on the nails, wrist off the table, pivoting on the forearm muscle. Funnily enough I now find this the most stable yet frictionless position, although I don't know if I would pass the button test already.

[Difd9]

Sorry this is so late, but I wasn't getting notifications on this thread! I figured out the grip more-or-less, and reading the thread has reaffirmed that I have been holding it correctly for the last few months. Anyways, thanks for the help!