To Waterman Carène Owners

[pen2paper]

 

Your help and insights are truly appreciated, pen2paper. Thanks!

You're most welcome. But do make inquiry of those who are familiar with cleaning the Carene silver finish properly. Glad to see Force is back. Having repaired several he may have a suggestion to remove the marks if possible. After that, where and how you store your Carene will be your next concern.

[pajaro]

I am glad to have seen this topic. I had three Carenes in Waterman leather pen pouches. I took them out and stored them in a fabric lined case. I had a Cross chrome pen in another Waterman leather case. Moved that to a pen tray.

 

No wonder those Waterman leather pen pouches were cheap.

[marcelo]

This is mild corrosion compared to a pair of Carene Sea Garden pens (FP & RB) I purchased before my FPN membership commenced. Both pens had deep corrosion on cap clips, cap bands and the tassies. They had been kept in a Waterman leather pouch all their lives, which had deformed to their profiles, which itself must have been kept in a damp environment. I wish that I had taken photographs but then time was of the essence and the set were returned to the ebay seller the very same day they arrived. They never appeared on ebay again to my knowledge.

 

The corrosion on your pen looks to be sulphurous which does happen on silver and silver plated products.

 

My wife has a L'Etalon BP which she keeps in a leather pouch. I clean it regularly to ensure that it does not deteriorate. But then again it is kept in a fairly dry environment.

Thank you, Force! Any suggestions on how to clean it?

[Left FPN]

Thank you, Force! Any suggestions on how to clean it?

As previously stated, a silver cloth should remove the marks if they are tarnish. If not then a silver polish liquid. As for keeping it clean then only regular inspection and cleaning can do that...and beware of leather pouches.

 

I have investigated my historic problem and can only assume it was the ammonia in the leather that caused the corrosion. The trim being brass based and gold plated should have stood up to a damp environment but if it has a high zinc content then ammonia is a killer.

 

If I may add here, and as I have mentioned elsewhere, the finish on these pens has changed over the years. Yours will definitely be silver plated but current models are now termed palladium plated. It seems Waterman themselves don't know what to call the plating because they still refer to some as CT (which I assume means Chrome plated Trim) and at least one as ST (Silver plated Trim) yet their descriptions say palladium trim...which should be PT. In itself an odd change because palladium MUST be more expensive than silver.

 

If I may add to this, attached is a pic of my Case folder with verdigris. It is kept in the Case leather pouch, dry in a kitchen drawer yet always this happens.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by Force

[Ernst Bitterman]

Looking at the close-up of the band, it almost seems that there's a small pit in the middle of each mark. I wonder if there wasn't a problem with plating during a particular production run, leaving some breaches through which things have crept to attack the substrate. If this is the case, polishing may well cause the plating to flake away from the affected areas.

 

This is pure speculation, so take it as seriously as you would a maiden aunt's hooting about how dangerous is it for the children to be riding bicycles.

[Left FPN]

This could be worth a photo or call to Waterman Customer Service. They may have spare parts because not too long ago I had Sea Garden cap and barrel replaced which is an older model than the Island Sands. The parts would not be cheap mind, I paid £55 for a cap plus the insured postage to them. Unfortunately when it arrived the clip was corroded so it went back. When it was eventually returned, not only had they fitted a new cap but also a new barrel for good customer relations.

[graystranger]

Force said:

 

If I may add to this, attached is a pic of my Case folder with verdigris. It is kept in the Case leather pouch, dry in a kitchen drawer yet always this happens.

 

DSCN0465.JPG

 

Force,

 

This is classic attack on brass from acid tanned leather. I store some of my vintage knives in nylon cases or keep them out of these leather cases. In a couple of cases I've wrapped the item in Press N Seal plastic wrap and that has worked.

 

I've seen this corrosion occur on aluminum alloys in contact with acid tanned leather too. You can see the corrosion on the brass snap in your excellent photo. When I've removed the corrosion from the brass, there was very light etching in the surface of the brass. It seems like the formation of the verdigris removed some of the copper from the surface of the brass alloy, etching the surface.

 

I'm sure this condition is worse in a moist, humid environment, but it will occur under dry conditions too. As far as I know there is no way of preventing this except keep the metal from contacting the leather.

Edited March 30, 2016 by graystranger

[marcelo]

As previously stated, a silver cloth should remove the marks if they are tarnish. If not then a silver polish liquid. As for keeping it clean then only regular inspection and cleaning can do that...and beware of leather pouches.

 

I have investigated my historic problem and can only assume it was the ammonia in the leather that caused the corrosion. The trim being brass based and gold plated should have stood up to a damp environment but if it has a high zinc content then ammonia is a killer.

 

If I may add here, and as I have mentioned elsewhere, the finish on these pens has changed over the years. Yours will definitely be silver plated but current models are now termed palladium plated. It seems Waterman themselves don't know what to call the plating because they still refer to some as CT (which I assume means Chrome plated Trim) and at least one as ST (Silver plated Trim) yet their descriptions say palladium trim...which should be PT. In itself an odd change because palladium MUST be more expensive than silver.

 

If I may add to this, attached is a pic of my Case folder with verdigris. It is kept in the Case leather pouch, dry in a kitchen drawer yet always this happens.

 

 

Thank you again, Force! Do you think I can try the silver polish liquid without fear of harming the pen body closed to the trim?

 

On purpose, I took a close of new macros with a "real" camera:

 

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/mmmcosta/Watches/Carene_1_zpsndtcyfg6.jpg

 

 

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/mmmcosta/Watches/Carene_2_zpsn2jtszay.jpg

[Ghost Plane]

Go gently. You don't need a lot of pressure. And smaller tools such as a cotton ear bud, can help you keep the polish where you want it.

[pen2paper]

This could be worth a photo or call to Waterman Customer Service. They may have spare parts because not too long ago I had Sea Garden cap and barrel replaced which is an older model than the Island Sands. The parts would not be cheap mind, I paid £55 for a cap plus the insured postage to them. Unfortunately when it arrived the clip was corroded so it went back. When it was eventually returned, not only had they fitted a new cap but also a new barrel for good customer relations.

Wait.. after seeing the last photo, this is important. If the pen was stored in it's Waterman Leather case, then this is likely an issue that Waterman may rectify, at some cost as Force suggest above. But, if you decide to go that route, have them assess the pen As It Is Now. Don't tinker with attempts to polish or use chemicals that would invalidate the clear issue for Waterman to repair.

 

This is an important lesson about potential leather storage damage for others too. Thanks everyone for your contributions!

[marcelo]

Wait.. after seeing the last photo, this is important. If the pen was stored in it's Waterman Leather case, then this is likely an issue that Waterman may rectify, at some cost as Force suggest above. But, if you decide to go that route, have them assess the pen As It Is Now. Don't tinker with attempts to polish or use chemicals that would invalidate the clear issue for Waterman to repair.

 

This is an important lesson about potential leather storage damage for others too. Thanks everyone for your contributions!

No, pen2paper. It's a case I had made by a shoe repairer based on a Lamy design, with the addition of a little pocket for a spare cartridge:

 

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii33/mmmcosta/Watches/PenCase_zps27acfdc3.jpg

 

You can read about it here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/290708-pen-case/

 

As I said before, it has felt inside - the pen did not have directly contact with the leather.

[Old_Inkyhand]

Thank you again, Force! Do you think I can try the silver polish liquid without fear of harming the pen body closed to the trim?

 

I only have a little suggestion. Once I had to polish some metal elements on my show bridle (I do some dressage). The leather was glossy - lacquered - so I really didn't want to scratch it. A friend of mine advised me to stick some masking tape in the 'risky' places - the wide one with a very delicate adhesive, which doesn't leave marks. I didn't have to worry that much then.

[pen2paper]

No, pen2paper. It's a case I had made by a shoe repairer based on a Lamy design, with the addition of a little pocket for a spare cartridge...

 

As I said before, it has felt inside - the pen did not have directly contact with the leather.

...just to break this down a little more for accuracy. It was only after using this pen case that your pen began to show this corrosion?

[Left FPN]

What I am now seeing is what 'eagle eye Ernst' spotted...those centre spot marks. That would, for me, be the corrosion core.

 

We now have another material in the loop, felt. My wife used to make things with felt, where she used pins to hold bits together...until some pins that had been engaged for a few days or more showed RUST. It is another material that holds moisture. Also I have just Googled 'Dying Felt' and the words 'ACID' Dye appear a lot.

 

Am I also seeing abrasion marks ??? #48/pic 1.

 

Very good macro by the way, what did you use.

[marcelo]

What I am now seeing is what 'eagle eye Ernst' spotted...those centre spot marks. That would, for me, be the corrosion core.

 

We now have another material in the loop, felt. My wife used to make things with felt, where she used pins to hold bits together...until some pins that had been engaged for a few days or more showed RUST. It is another material that holds moisture. Also I have just Googled 'Dying Felt' and the words 'ACID' Dye appear a lot.

 

Am I also seeing abrasion marks ??? #48/pic 1.

 

Very good macro by the way, what did you use.

 

Thank you, Force! I used an "old" DSC-XH1 and a steady hand.

 

About abrasion marks, what do you mean? All I see other than the corrosion spots is a scratch in the first picture.

 

 

Marcelo

[Left FPN]

 

Thank you, Force! I used an "old" DSC-XH1 and a steady hand.

 

About abrasion marks, what do you mean? All I see other than the corrosion spots is a scratch in the first picture.

 

 

Marcelo

 

[marcelo]

Carene_1_zpsndtcyfg6_01.jpg

 

 

Yeap! That's a scratch.

Edited April 1, 2016 by marcelo

[Left FPN]

OK, very good, I was checking my new glasses and it may have been an illusion or reflection within the room.

[Left FPN]

Just spotted this on a 100 year pen.

 

 

[marcelo]

Just spotted this on a 100 year pen.

 

100yr.JPG

 

100 YO! But mine is not even 10.

 

Just kidding, Force! It's really interesting to see it does look like a lot what happened to mine.

 

 

Thank you!

 

Marcelo