How Do We Know?

[Kalessin]

 

I think it's clear that if you post something that is negative, or if it's posted when someone else doesn't want it to be posted it will be deleted.

 

Trying to know what in advance harms someone else's financial interests is impossible. Just be aware your posts will be removed as needed.

 

As the writer of the current set of Montblanc forum rules, and after moderating here for eight years, I've seen (and not deleted) a fair bit of negative discussion of Montblanc products in one way or another, and occasionally critical of the company as well.

 

Right in the rules is wording that says that on-topic controversial discussion is allowed.

 

Material copyrighted by others, however, is not in our control.

[salesguy]

Well then, I'm confused.

 

Can we or can we not discuss unreleased pens? Wim's post states not, the rules would say yes

 

And given the original thread discussing the issue has been 'cleansed'.......

[Mister Mont Blanc]

Well then, I'm confused.

 

Can we or can we not discuss unreleased pens? Wim's post states not, the rules would say yes

 

And given the original thread discussing the issue has been 'cleansed'.......

 

We still cannot discussed unreleased pens... this was a recent request made as an amendment to the current rules. I am not sure if they have been changed at this point to reflect the new restrictions. Kalessin is referring to the point that posts are not simply deleted because they are controversial or negative in nature. However, this refers to posts outside of the discussion of unreleased pens, i.e., reviews of released pens, comments about boutiques, or after-sales experiences. I believe it is merely being said that the forum is not so highly regulated to remove any non-glorious discussions or opinions. However, posts made about unreleased pens or products, controversial or not, now fall under the guideline of not discussing unreleased products. Once a product is released, we are free to controversially discuss away (within the guidelines of the rules of course).

[dcwaites]

So, we can't discuss new pens that haven't been released yet, but are we allowed to discuss pens that haven't been announced, but will never be released? i.e. the Attila the Hun LE, with accompanying Bulls Blood Ink?

[eidola]

The Kafka was released. We can talk about Kafka.

 

Scenium too. Probably prefer we don't talk about that.

[bleair]

 

As the writer of the current set of Montblanc forum rules, and after moderating here for eight years, I've seen (and not deleted) a fair bit of negative discussion of Montblanc products in one way or another, and occasionally critical of the company as well.

 

Right in the rules is wording that says that on-topic controversial discussion is allowed.

 

Material copyrighted by others, however, is not in our control.

 

While there are several court cases still winding there ways through US courts, a party can assert copyright violation on just about anything (from yelp reviews, to disclosure of products). It doesn't matter how absurd, the law protects copyright holders.

 

Fighting in court that a post or comment isn't infringing is something you can always do, but that will cost a lot of money as well as time of hired lawyers (which Montblanc's parent company has lots of).

 

Independent of FPN deleting posts under the umbrella of "copyright infringement" I've also seen posts removed from FPN if they mention EBAY listings and the ebay user making the listing didn't like the post on FPN.

 

I've also seen people make factual, controversial, comments about different vendors of services, and when those vendors contact FPN the posts are deleted.

 

I think FPN has lots of great freely-provided information, photos, and conversation provided by members who come, or used to come, here. I don't have to pay to use FPN, but on the other side of that equation is Wym who runs FPN and chooses how to monetize it. It goes without saying that an obvious part of monetizing FPN is to delete posts that cause problems.

Edited March 3, 2016 by bleair

[Axis]

"How do we know" is a very good thread title.

 

I originated one of the deleted threads on the 110th anniversary pen (Edition of 1906) including Pictures that I took myself of the final product. The pen was shown to me and it was not accompanied by any warning not to share it. This is important because when Montblanc does not want me to share pen Pictures they tell me whilst showing the pen (actually I am in These cases not even allowed to take a Picture at all).

 

So there was no Copyright Violation by me - but obviously a mishandling by them. In this particular case Montblanc has put pressure on FPN and on Wim although there was no Copyright Violation. To my mind, and I will express this next time I meet the Montblanc People, this has become an Image boomerang as there are so many Posts and reads on this silly Approach in trying to control social media.

 

So I could re-post These Pictures as they are mine and as no-one has told me yet not to share them (and I have shared them in several means - not only FPN). But I won't to Keep Wim out of Trouble.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Axis

[salesguy]

So, based on Axis post we have a very interesting situation. Essentially, Wim is censoring the forum based on the commercial wishes of the company.

 

This makes me feel very uncomfortable, as where is the line drawn? What happens if MB don't like a critical thread? Will that be censored?

 

The premise on which the action was taken is also wrong. The images were not an infringement of copyright, Axis has the rights to them & they were taken openly.

 

Am I alone in thinking this is wrong, from the company but more importantly from the mods?

[Axis]

So, based on Axis post we have a very interesting situation. Essentially, Wim is censoring the forum based on the commercial wishes of the company.

 

This makes me feel very uncomfortable, as where is the line drawn? What happens if MB don't like a critical thread? Will that be censored?

 

The premise on which the action was taken is also wrong. The images were not an infringement of copyright, Axis has the rights to them & they were taken openly.

 

Am I alone in thinking this is wrong, from the company but more importantly from the mods?

I remember there were other Pictures and descriptions in the thread taken from Montblanc booklets - so I would not say that Wim is censoring our threads, he took out the whole thread because there was some Copyright material in there. I rather wanted to make clear that Montblanc has to be straight on all occasions when they Show pens/Pictures etc - they cannot try to control the process afterwards.

[ScienceChick]

They can certainly try to control the process, it's their success - or lack of success - that's being discussed.

[jmccarty3]

I spent quite some time last night composing my thoughts about this incident. I didn't post it. I have enough fear in my life right now.

[jar]

I still see this whole issue as silly and pretty pointless.

 

If and when censorship of anything of significance happens then perhaps it might be worthy of discussion. But this is an internet forum, we are talking about fountain pens the the rest of the world thinks even discussing fountain pens at all is a silly and frivolous past-time pastime.

[Pravda]

Several points come to mind here:

 

1. Was wondering why a Blue Hour discussion was getting so hot with several pages. I get it, we got sidetracked again

 

2. Our moderators are very polite and considerate. They're trying hard to please both parties, while we've always know that isn't possiblle. They're just the messengers, please try not to make their lives difficult.

 

3. Weird been a member since 2007 or so and I've always come here to see 'upcoming' releases. That was the place to be, one of the reasons I joined. Can't help but wonder when and why that became a sensitive issue. I mean, if through MB- why only recently?

 

4. Am curious how much of value does MB perceive us to be. Many high rollers here with deep pockets that are enthusiastically buying their limited edition creations. I wonder if this 'ban' has been studied from a marketing perspective because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

Edited due to autocorrect spelling errors.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Pravda

[Pen Nut]

I still see this whole issue as silly and pretty pointless.

 

If and when censorship of anything of significance happens then perhaps it might be worthy of discussion. But this is an internet forum, we are talking about fountain pens the the rest of the world thinks even discussing fountain pens at all is a silly and frivolous past-time pastime.

 

I have told people about 'us' in the past and some have visited here and left stunned at our 'sillyness' .............

[FredRydr]

You guys are weird.

 

Fred

[meiers]

It's finally going to warm up a little in Winnipeg, Manitoba v

Tomorrow I will power-walk to school and dream of all the pens that will soon be released.

[Pen Nut]

It's finally going to warm up a little in Winnipeg, Manitoba v

Tomorrow I will power-walk to school and dream of all the pens that will soon be released.

 

Sorry............dreaming of pens that will soon be released is strictly forbidden !

 

Reminds me of that old army joke :

 

Private to Officer : " Sir if I said your were a complete *****le would I be disciplined ?"

 

Officer replies " of course you would laddie "

 

Private responds with " what about if I only think you are a complete *****le ?"

 

Officer replies " well I cant discipline you for what you think can I "

 

Private ponders for a few minutes and says " fine, in that case sir I think you a complete *****le"

[meiers]

It's going to be a good walk.

Edited March 3, 2016 by meiers

[sunnerd]

If we are only talking about copyrights, then when a punter walks into a boutique under invitation and he took a shot of the pen on display and there were NO signs warning him of doing so, and the said punter posts the picture of this pen, it is not a copyright topic as he was the photographer and he owns the copyright. OTOH if the photo is a product marketing photo that was sent to dealers / boutiques and on-forwarded to someone and he posted it online, then there is copyright consideration.

 

However, AFAIK, the 110th anniv photo was the former case and not the latter. Hence I really don't see a point of raising the copyright topic. It's ridiculous.

 

I do understand Montblanc wanting their marketing campaign to go as planned, but sorry, once your boutique lets loose of information like this, sh*t will happen and you're measured by how you deal with the brown matter.

 

And I grade Montblanc F on this.

 

P.S. Maybe we can start a Montblancrumours.com site and discuss there.

Edited March 3, 2016 by sunnerd

[Pen Nut]

'Anticipointment' - when something you're really looking forward to turns out to be a bit ****

 

Roll on April when I can express mine