Water Resistant Inks -- How Does Noodler's Do It?

[Miz Black Crow]

Deleted duplicate post, because mobile view is irksome.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Miz Black Crow

[dcwaites]

  On 2/10/2016 at 1:23 AM, Miz Black Crow said:

Deleted duplicate post, because mobile view is irksome soul-destroying.

 

There, fixed that for you.

[Miz Black Crow]

  On 2/10/2016 at 8:15 AM, dcwaites said:

 

  On 2/10/2016 at 1:23 AM, Miz Black Crow said:

Deleted duplicate post, because mobile view is irksome soul-destroying.

There, fixed that for you.

 

:lticaptd: :lticaptd:

 

...I had to open my laptop to include these smilies in my reply, because when I tried to go from "fast reply" to something that would include smilies on my phone, my phone tried to recreate the desktop experience of FPN... excluding smilies. And now I can't get it to go back to Mobile view.

 

The things we do for love...

 

By the way, I made a mix last night of 3mL water : 2mL dye : 0.5mL glycerin : 0.2mL isopropyl : 1 drop Thymol. HOLY COW does Thymol have a strong scent at this concentration! I wrote in my journal last night before bed and the page still smells pleasantly of thyme (working with the bottle actually gave me a touch of headache and my hands smelled like thyme all night). The ink is a very vibrant red, not much shading. No water resistance to speak of, but we knew that going in. Inksperiment continues.

[Miz Black Crow]

UPDATE

The soda ash (sodium carbonate) I was awaiting arrived today right before I left for work. I wound up mixing up a 5mL vial of the following components in the parking lot outside of work: Soda ash ~1.5mL to Remazol stock solution ~3.5mL. The idea was to include more sodium carbonate than would be stable in solution, to produce a solution saturated with the carbonate (ie unable to dissolve any more soda ash). This was observed by the fact that a solid portion of the carbonate remains in the bottom of the vial. (Adding dye solution, which contains acetic acid, to the salt did produce some bubbling but nowhere near as much as was expected or was observed with the sodium bicarbonate [baking soda]).

 

The resultant ink was then loaded into a fountain pen, with the following results:

• Color: While the ink continues to lay down on the page as a beautiful scarlet red, when dark, the color is now a red-black, almost a dead ringer for Noodler’s Red-Black, in fact (with less shading).
  
• Behavior: No significant change from pure Remazol other than color variation (as above).
  
• Waterfastness: At 10-60m after mixing, the ink exhibits no significant change in water resistance from pure Remazol dye alone. Despite some very apparent ongoing chemistry once upon the page (as evidenced by color change), the ink still fails a 60s running water test (10m dry time) and a drip test at 20m dry time. 60m tests are impractical at this time, as I’m currently in class renewing one of my work certifications.

The next components to arrive will be Glauber salts and triethanolamine; I intend to try 4 parallel inks: (dye + salt); (dye + triethanolamine), (dye + soda ash + Glauber salt), (dye + triethanolamine + salt). If all of these fail to provide significant water resistance, I intend to try a 5th formulation: (dye + soda ash + triethanolamine +salt). I believe that the salt may be an important component involved in binding the dye to the cellulose. It is also a pH neutral salt, which, if it is successful on its own, may be what allows Noodler’s to be pH neutral.

 

For those concerned about corrosion, note that Glauber’s salt is Sodium Sulfate, which is used in the dyeing process to assist binding and is used in order to prevent corrosion of metals; it appears that most of the corrosion involved when metal contacts table salts is from the chloride component, not the sodium component. However, to be safe, if becomes apparent that sodium sulfate is necessary to the waterfastness of the ink, I will leave a nib partially submerged in an ink solution containing significant quantities of sodium sulfate to ensure it does not corrode nibs.

 

Inksperiment Continues.

[dcwaites]

If you want to sacrifice nibs to science, you can get batches of 5 or 10 chinese #6 nibs on eBay.

[Miz Black Crow]

Forgot to post this after I wrote it Here's an update from +- a week ago....

 

Update

 

Glauber’s salt arrived yesterday. I built a quick mix using dye stock solution and Glauber’s salt beyond maximum concentration (eg with precipitate).

 

Not only does this mix fail to resist water after 10 minutes dry time, the precipitate formed a crystal which attached to the bottom of the vial and was extremely difficult to remove (water, isopropyl soaks were ineffective; it required the equivalent force to icebreaking with a chopstick to remove ). Even when combined with soda ash it was ineffective at resisting water.

 

Glauber’s salt may be necessary in some formulations for whatever reason but it is not to aid Remazol dyes with water resistance.

 

The next arriving component will be triethanolamine. If this fails to produce water resistance, I may have to either do more research on activating agents or else attempt inksperiment with a different class of dye component.

 

Inksperiment continues.

[Miz Black Crow]

Update

 

TL;DR: This mix is the first success I’ve had with water resistance, but it comes at the cost of feather and bleed. The question is whether I can accomplish the former and also mitigate/eliminate the latter.

 

Triethanolamine arrived last night. I would have had time for more serious testing if I had realized this before 11pm. As it is, I’ve had time only to formulate one preliminary batch of ink.

 

Triethanolamine (TEA) is a carbon-based surfactant and penetrant, consisting of a carbon atom with three ethanol groups (triethanol-) and an amino group (-amine). The idea behind it, as I understand it, is that the ink bonds with the TEA, which also binds to paper on a separate binding site, though I don’t know which aspect allows it to bind to which reagent. It's also a weak base with a pH of 10-11, though having used stronger bases (soda ash), I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with functionality.

 

It's a common ingredient in cosmetics-making, and comes in a liquid formulation, which apparently can and does freeze at low temperatures and required rewarming. Once warm and fluid it becomes a thick, viscous liquid. I added ~0.5mL of this liquid to ~3mL of Remazol dye solution and began testing. I then loaded this into a pen and began testing.

 

Last night I only had time to do a water resistance test, which was very promising compared to control samples. This is the first bit of success I’ve had with inducing water resistance.

 

The sample was written on Rhodia dot paper, allowed to dry for 10 minutes, then placed in a kitchen sink and placed under a running faucet for 60 seconds in a manner similar to previous control trials. The mix held up fairly well to this torture testing, remaining distinctly legible, although faded, where control samples had washed away almost entirely.

 

The trade-off to using triethanolamine appears to be that it induces feathering, even with a medium nib, on Leuchtturm. It also bleeds through on occasion, and when it does it usually goes into the following page. In addition, the mixture produces some ink leak into the cap in the Levenger L-Tech I’ve been testing the ink with. (Those familiar with the L-Tech will note that the cap finial is screw-off, which permits ink leak out of the pen....)

 

I’ll have to attempt to balance penetration and surface tension with water resistance. Tonight I intend to balance the triethanolamine with some glycerin to see if that can reduce flow while retaining penetration / water resistance.

 

I also intend to test triethanolamine + soda ash to see if there is any form of multiplicative effect on water resistance. (Remembering the darkening effect soda ash has on the dye component, I may use only a small amount, and I honestly don't think it will change anything but it's worth a shot.)

 

Inksperiment continues with head high and a glimmer of hope in the eye.

[onotopen]

Hi

 

I don't normally visit this area of the the Forum, so please forgive me if this is all old hat...

 

Goulet Pens did an interview with Dante Visconzi in which he discusses ink, although the main thrust of the talk was about Vacuum Fillers.

 

(Davyk put me onto it in relation to Vac Fillers.)

 

In it he mentions the four main ingredients including Gum Arabic which is used as a thickener (it may be that because it's water-soluble this may not be very good for 'waterproofness') I throw it into the pot for what it's worth...please feel free to throw it out again !

[Miz Black Crow]

  On 2/21/2016 at 10:35 AM, onotopen said:

Hi

 

I don't normally visit this area of the the Forum, so please forgive me if this is all old hat...

 

Goulet Pens did an interview with Dante Visconzi in which he discusses ink, although the main thrust of the talk was about Vacuum Fillers.

 

(Davyk put me onto it in relation to Vac Fillers.)

 

In it he mentions the four main ingredients including Gum Arabic which is used as a thickener (it may be that because it's water-soluble this may not be very good for 'waterproofness') I throw it into the pot for what it's worth...please feel free to throw it out again !

 

Thanks for the video! It's a really cool vid! As for the gum arabic, it and glycerine seem to have basically the same function, to thicken the ink and prevent spread. (The problem I'm working on now is actually related to this; triethanolamine increases water resistance but also induces spread, feather etc.)

 

He does make me wonder whether an acidic mix would work better than a basic mix, though. Hmmmm....

[Tayanna]

Miz Black Crow,

 

How is the inksperiment going? I've loved reading up on what you are doing and hoping to here more results and thoughts from you.

 

I think I want to join in on the inksperiment to see if we can't collaborate to the end goal. Cheers!

[Miz Black Crow]

  On 3/5/2016 at 12:33 AM, Tayanna said:

Miz Black Crow,

 

How is the inksperiment going? I've loved reading up on what you are doing and hoping to here more results and thoughts from you.

 

I think I want to join in on the inksperiment to see if we can't collaborate to the end goal. Cheers!

 

Sorry for the lack of new data!

 

I discovered after posting my last update that the feathering and bleedthrough induced by triethanolamine (admittedly at 10% concentration by volume, which is rather high) was wholly unacceptable. Other than trying adding Jacquard's own Dye-Set Concentrate to the dye (which ended in predictable disaster and crazy clumpiness), I haven't tried anything new. I can't even get Procion dye to bond to cellulose within 10 minutes enough to withstand 60s of running tap water, so I'm pretty much all out of ideas at this point. The only other thing I can think of is finding some other kind of penetrant to push the ink deeper into the paper (replacing triethanolamine), but honestly, I don't have the dosh right now to buy ANOTHER component that might not help. This patent ( https://www.google.com/patents/US5141556 ) suggests using some substances, which turn out to be relatively expensive, and my chemistry mojo isn't strong enough to work out whether any of it is safe to bring into my house.

 

That being said, I've moved laterally, into making the prettiest inks that I can with the items on hand. I've been inksperimenting with various mica powders and colors/dilutions (I bought a couple more bottles of Remazol dyes, and I've had some good results with colors!) When I have something solid I'll show it off in the Inky Recipes section.

 

I suppose I could try a solution using less triethanolamine and see if I can get penetration without feather/bleed.... Hmmm. Also I could try adding other surfactants (dish soap >> Purpose hand soap, btw, which also induces feathering on its own, and does not improve waterfastness).

 

Do YOU have any ideas how to go forward? Since none of my additives have worked with Remazol or Procion dye to achieve waterfastness (other than triethanolamine, which broke the ink), I'm left to marvel at Noodlers' dark, dark magic and be in even more awe than I was when I started.

[thorn]

I experiemented with textile dyes without luck a few years ago. The textile dyes break down quickly from what I remember. I wonder if the water proof ink is pigment based? Think Platinum Carbon Ink.

Edited March 6, 2016 by thorn

[Miz Black Crow]

  On 3/6/2016 at 2:59 PM, thorn said:

I experiemented with textile dyes without luck a few years ago. The textile dyes break down quickly from what I remember. I wonder if the water proof ink is pigment based? Think Platinum Carbon Ink.

 

Pigment inks work, but the risk with them is pigment size and aggregation, and the sensitive channels in FP feeds. Then again, the Document inks from DA are pigment inks. Worth considering. I've also been toying around with pigment in a dye, which is a REALLY interesting setup (think of the Shimmertastic line, or the 1670 series of inks). But Noodler's is confirmed to be dye-based, not pigmented, so it's definitely possible to achieve water resistance with dyes. The questions that remain are, which dyes, and how?

[thorn]

  On 3/6/2016 at 9:15 PM, Miz Black Crow said:

 

Pigment inks work, but the risk with them is pigment size and aggregation, and the sensitive channels in FP feeds. Then again, the Document inks from DA are pigment inks. Worth considering. I've also been toying around with pigment in a dye, which is a REALLY interesting setup (think of the Shimmertastic line, or the 1670 series of inks). But Noodler's is confirmed to be dye-based, not pigmented, so it's definitely possible to achieve water resistance with dyes. The questions that remain are, which dyes, and how?

 

I wonder where one would get pigments that are really small?

 

Where is the info on Noodler's being dye based? I have read on the forum people talking about cellulose dyes, but nothing on Noodler's site. At least what I have seen in the past.

[Tayanna]

Miz Black Crow,

 

Hmn, I am wondering if a weaker surfactant would be better. Maybe it would allow the ink to bond with the paper better and should feather less because it would have a slightly higher surface tension.

I'll run some ideas by my O-Chem professor and see if we can't come up with a few ideas.

[dcwaites]

  On 2/1/2016 at 6:44 PM, Miz Black Crow said:

Noodler's amazes me. The color options, the shading, the water resistance (some-but-not-all inks). I have nothing but respect for Mr. Tardif. This thread is one of wonderment, amazement, and homage.

 

...

 

So for the chemists in the room: how can one make a water-resistant, dye-based ink? The dye retailers I've called don't think it can be done. (They mostly retail to cloth dyers, so their lack of expertise in inks isn't surprising, but cellulose reactivity is cellulose reactivity; all cellulose-reactive dyes I've come across require activation with a base like soda ash or NaOH, and then are unstable in a bottle. )

 

 

...

 

I just thought I would go back to basics, and did a Google Search on "chemistry of cellulose reactive dyes"

 

Are any of the links that come up helpful?

Edited March 7, 2016 by dcwaites

[WirsPlm]

  On 3/5/2016 at 2:47 PM, Miz Black Crow said:

I suppose I could try a solution using less triethanolamine and see if I can get penetration without feather/bleed.... Hmmm. Also I could try adding other surfactants (dish soap >> Purpose hand soap, btw, which also induces feathering on its own, and does not improve waterfastness).

 

Don't use dish soap, it will mess up your results, it's not a pure surfactant and has things to penetrate and remove stains/grease. I use Kodak PhotoFlo, which I found for a reasonable price on eBay.

[grayautumnday]

  On 2/5/2016 at 6:19 PM, Miz Black Crow said:

Well, since this thread hasn't seemed to turn up any answers yet, I'm going to have to get cracking on an Inksperiment. I intend to try the following, and would welcome any and all input on this experimental design. If you have any thoughts as to how to proceed, or any changes you would make to this design, PLEASE feel free to tell me! I won’t be insulted. I’m no chemist, and I may have some of the chemistry wrong. (My work is parascientific but is in the area of medicine, not fluid dynamics or hydrochemistry.)

 

If anyone knows of a good chemical way to bond dyes to paper that isn’t triethanolamine or sodium carbonate, PLEASE let me know. I’ve heard of using 2-picolene (2-methylpyridine), but I don’t have access to it.

 

Objective: To produce a dye-based, pen-safe, viable fountain pen ink, which boasts water resistance to the point of legibility after drip testing and soak testing. Resistance to other solvents (bleach, ammonia, .....) are bonuses but not required for this series of tests to be considered successful. The ink must remain stable in solution and remain waterproof over a period of no less than 6 months (with 6 months being considered "indefinitely").

 

Background: We know that there are multiple inks on the market that are cellulose-reactive (water-resistant), dye-based inks. We know that these inks are produced by chemistry, rather than the dark, dark magic which immediately comes to mind. We know that these inks are advertised as pH-neutral, however, pH neutrality is not a required aspect of the neoformulation.

 

Given a patent search, it becomes evident that many early dye-based permanent inks are the result of adding strong alkali solutions and/or strong salts to traditional dyes (Direct or Acid dyes). However, neither of these ingredients are particularly desirable in fountain pen ink in the modern era, due to the possibility of corrosion of stainless steel nibs. Likewise, volatile organic solvents are not desirable, especially due to the risks to manufacturers of working with VOCs.

 

Current, commonly-available fiber-reactive dyes include Procion MX dyes, which are not known to remain stable in aqueous solution for prolonged periods, Cibacron F dyes, which are of unknown longevity, and Remazon dyes. This last category of dye is particularly of interest to the inksperimentrix, since they are of a class of dyes (vinyl sulfone) known as bifunctional dyes; namely, they are reactive on two sites of the dye molecule (as opposed to monofunctional dyes, which are only active at one site). Remazol dyes are also known to be shelf-stable in aqueous solution and are in fact commonly sold in stock solutions.

 

These stock solutions are of particular interest to the inksperimentrix, accomplishing two very important goals. Firstly, they alleviate one inconsistency in inksperimentation: solution concentration. Secondly, the inksperimentrix absorbs less health-hazard risk when using stock solutions, since dyes are only health-hazardous when inhaled in powder form (and if she inhales a liquid, she has problems worse than whatever irritation inhaled dyes may cause).

 

Thus, a Remazol vinyl sulfone bifunctional dye solution shall be chosen as the dye upon which to base the initial ink formulation. A relatively visible color shall be used, such as red, to help with identification of issues such as SITB (S—t in the Bottle), precipitates falling out of solution, or other potential changes to the ink. (A waterproof red would also, selfishly, fill a hole in the inksperimentrix's current collection.)

 

However, questions remain as to how one may stabilize the ink, increase its reactivity to cellulose (if required beyond direct application with a pen), and how to cause whatever mixtures produced to be shelf-stable for multiple years.

 

Vinyl sulfone dyes are activated by the use of alkali agents (soda ash, or sodium carbonate, is a common activating agent; so is pot ash (a vague term for potassium-based salts such as potassium carbonate or potassium chloride). Soda ash seems less caustic, is more readily available at better prices, and shall be used in this experiment. Additionally, other binding agents such as triethanolamine have been suggested and used in other inks; triethanolamine shall be tested both in parallel and combined with sodium carbonate.

 

Glycerine shall be added as a flow modifier and humectant. For a surfactant (to reduce surface tension) a 1:100 (1%) dilution of Purpose hand soap shall be used. This will be added toward the end for FP testing to modify flow. Note: Triethanolamine acts as a surfactant and may reduce surface tension in a satisfactory manner on its own.

 

Experimental Design

 

Stock Solution Preparation

1. A “stock solution” shall be made involving 500mL of Sterile Water and a Remazol dye solution. The ink that has been purchased is Jacquard's Green Label Scarlet in a 2oz bottle. This procedure is written assuming ~50mL of dye solution will be used, for a total volume of 550mL.
2. Add Glycerine 5mL per 100mL of solution (per Pharmacist’s recommendation). Total volume 25 mL for 500mL; 27.5mL for 550mL.
3. Thymol shall be added at 2gtt:100mL (11gtt per ~550mL). This is an antimicrobial/antifungal. Hopefully it smells pretty.
4. Ink mixture shall be gently agitated to produce a uniform solution.

 

Preparation of Ink Samples for Controlled Trials

1. Ink shall be divided into 30mL containers (or 60mL containers with 30mL of solution) as follows:
   • Vial A: 30mL Stock solution without changes (CONTROL SAMPLE)
   • Vial B: 30mL Stock solution + Sodium Carbonate (0.5g – 1.5% w/vol)
   • Vial 😄 30mL Stock solution + Triethanolamine (1g – 3% w/vol)
   • Vial 😧 30mL Stock solution + Sodium Carbonate (0.5g) + Triethanolamine (1g)

 

Methodology for Testing of Ink Samples

 

Inks shall be tested at the following times:

• 1 hour
• 24 hours
• 72 hours
• 14 days
• 30 days
• 90 days
• 180 days

The methodology for examining and testing each vial shall be as follows:

1. Physically inspect each ink for problems: precipitates, SITB, etc. Note: Any SITB is to be treated with an additional 1-2 gtts of Thymol and monitored for additional S.
2. Prepare a color swab in the Inksperimentation Notebook using a Q-tip.
3. Prepare a writing sample (not for submersion) using a dip pen. Thoroughly clean and dry the dip pen between samples.
4. Prepare a water-swab-type writing sample using a dip pen. Thoroughly clean and dry the dip pen between samples.
5. On a separate piece of Rhodia paper, prepare six spaces, lettered by a know water-resistant ink (eg Old Manhattan Blackest Black). Label areas A - F.
6. In the spaces below the lettering, write a sample for each mixture: “60 minutes 60 minutes 60 minutes”
7. 50 minutes later, in the spaces below the above text, write a sample for each mixture: “10 minutes 10 minutes 10 minutes” .
8. 10 minutes after completion of the last writing sample, submerge the water resistance sheet face-down in a shallow dish of water. Leave submerged for 1 hour. Dry face-up on a paper towel.
9. During soak test, perform water-droplet tests on prepared samples. Allow ink to sit for 30s, then swab with a Q-tip to dry.
10. Record notable findings in the Inksperiment Journal: changes in color relative to baseline and/or control; water resistance (and changes therein) over time; etc. General properties such as bleed/feather, dry times, etc. can be tweaked later and are secondary to primary functionality (color & resistance to soak/drip).
11. Post above findings with associated photographs to this thread on the Fountain Pen Network forums.

 

Criteria for Discontinuation

 

When one or more of the following criteria are met, the ink formulation shall be discontinued for use, with the exception of the Control group (sample A):

1. Heavy precipitation of solutes leading to nonfunctionality of the ink.
2. Complete and utter loss of, or drastic change in, color relative to control. This is especially important in changes over time.
3. Absolute and total failure to resist water. Note: ALL THAT IS REQUIRED IS LEGIBILITY following exposures; total waterfastness is not mandatory.
4. Development of SITB which fails to respond to additional Thymol.

 

Any sample which fails in testing shall be emptied, its bottle cleaned and used to produce a new formulation or variant of a better-behaving formulation.

 

Areas to Consider Should Above Options Fail

 

• Dye-based inks tend to like salts. While high-salt solutions are not considered desirable for fountain pen use, small quantities of salts such as table salt (sodium chloride) may be considered. Sodium chloride solutions are commonly available at isotonic solutions of 0.9% (saline), or 90mg NaCl per mL of water; this may be halved or even quartered easily. In fact a 0.3% (1/3NS) solution would be easy to make by using 10mL of NS + 20mL sterile water. This solution would have to be tested for corrosive capability on steel nibs; a “sacrificial lamb” nib would have to be inserted and remain in a bottle for an extended period to prove lack of corrosiveness.
• Basic compounds could be used (for example, increasing the concentration of ink solutions) to raise pH, perhaps further activating vinyl sulphone dyes. Pot ash (potassium chloride) is one such compound. Sodium bicarbonate, or household baking soda, is a weaker base but could work as a substitute for sodium carbonate, IF the latter is a successful approach to inkmaking.
• Other fixatives, such as ProChem’s PRO Fix, are an option, but the simpler and wider-available the components, the more successful the ink will be (and the easier it will be for other inksters worldwide to acquire the components).
• Alternatives to Thymol include phenol itself (harder to acquire and a known carcinogen), Dowicil (harder to acquire in reasonable end-user quantities), salicylic acid (uncertain how this would play with alkaline dye activators), Germall Plus.

 

This inksperimental design is open to public comment, especially while I wait for Amazon-acquired components to arrive. Please please please leave any feedback or suggestions here.

Expand  

FR dyes can be activated in the presence of any strong alkaline pH shift. I've used home-cleaning strength ammonia, weaker solutions of NaOH and KOH when I was short on sodium carb. Sodium Bicarbonate could theoretically be used to produce very weak colors if the dyestuff fiber were to remain wet and very warm for several days.

 

FR dyes, in absence of an ideal cellulose target, will react with itself and other components in the water. The "reactive" in the dye name is purposeful - it must react someway somehow very quickly, or it will donate/steal the bits it needs to form nonreactive stable molecules.

The absolute longest I've been able to make a wet dyestock solution last after alkalizing catalyst has been added is 5 days at ~ 65F room temperature, 10 days if stored in a colder-than-usual refrigerator. The resulting textile had only a mild saturation of color, most of which was simply acting as a pigment - the vast majority of the dye crocked - the no-longer-reactive dye colloids residue on the fabrics simply washed away - first washes down to pastels, by 2d/3d washes, the remaining dyes were very pale off-white tints, at most.

 

The ONLY way a FR dye ink could be made to work is if NT found a way to either:

nano-encapsulate the alkaline catalyst -- the base mixture would HAVE to be neutral - not acidic, not alkaline - for it to remain an unactivated dyestock, but even then FR dyes/dyestocks have a maximum shelf-life of 12-24 months before the dye powder starts degrading, colors shifting, mixture components reacting, whether or not significant moisture is present. After the maximum shelf life, some of the colors in a dye mixture will remain reactive, but the resulting textile color will look nothing like the color a dyer would get while the FR dye was still viable.

(Side Note - some dyers use expired FR dyes in acid dyeing protein fibers such as wool, the possible reactivity of the not-yet-deactivated components of the dye mix is greater for an additional 1-2 years past the cellulose max shelf life. However, again, the resulting color on protein fibers will be unpredictable and there will be a ton of dye colloids crocking - rubbing off on skin, other surfaces, slowly coming out over DOZENS of laundry cycles, often staining other garments.)

Besides the 1-2 year absolute max shelf-life for a FR dyestock ink to stay in the same neighborhood of the initial color...

... and that's with an incredulous somehow-100%-perfectly-encapsulated-alkali-catalyst micelle or other nano-capsule present in the base liquid...

... FR dyes are highly **reactive** - they steal atoms from any material they come into. They also make use of toxic heavy metals as components - they would end up causing rapid degradation of at least some pen parts... well-known to dyers FAST reactions to aluminum, but other reactions to steels, brass/bronze/silver, chrome/nickel/tin, latex, some silicones, celluloid/PLA, etc... 

 

For alkaline catalyzers, avoid oxidizing or reducing agents - for example:

sodium percarbonate (active ingredient in oxyclean) great at freeing partially reacted red dyes in wash to fully bond with anything else of lighter color in the same batch.

Sodium Hypochlorite and Thiorea Dioxide are used as decolorants - they break bonds of dyes in dyed fiber.

 

A vast longstanding and ever growing deep wealth of information -- on the various types and attributes of most dyes known to humankind -- can be found at the website of the patron saint of dyers, Paula Burch: https://www.pburch.net

[grayautumnday]

I know I said either... I decided not to additionally follow the tangent of somehow nano-encapsulating FR dyes in a dye-free alkaline base liquid... no matter which way, inks made with FR dyes that are still reactive (capable of forming permanent bonds with cellulose on prolonged wet & warm contact) would no longer be at all close to the same color after even 1 year. Just can't happen.

 

I suspect he's using vinyl sulfone (aka vinyl sulphon or remazol) dyes - they work on both cellulose and protein fibers, they have a long shelf life and remain reliable in producing stable colors for several years. But they require a great deal of heat to form permanent bonds.

 

I also suspect that he's using a bunch of TEOA to maintain solubility of a fair quantity of fast-drying oleoresin components. Several of the Noodler's inks, when swatched, have the same satin sheen of vintage Solvx Quink or vintage Higgins Eternal ink - which both very much resemble a solid satin varnish finish when swatched in a wet enough puddle on paper and dried.

Edited October 11, 2024 by grayautumnday
forgot to mention vinrage higgins eternal in addition to vintage quink solvx

[thorn]

I wonder if the vinyl sulfone dyes are waterproof etc?

 

They tend to clog my pens if I do not flush them well.