Italic Handwriting with regular fountain pens

[JDShaffer]

Well, here's my poor rendition of Mr. Pickering's excellent examplar on using "out of the box" fountain pens. As luck would have it, this was also written with an "out of the box" pen. Though I wish mine wrote as beautifully as Mr. Pickering's! (Perhaps mine is broken??)

 

http://www.osaka-gu.ac.jp/php/jds/misc/jp-copy1.jpg

[James Pickering]

  James Pickering said:

Although excellent Italic handwriting can be rendered using fountain pens with regular iridium tipped nibs, the nuanced character of the writing exemplified by the thick and thin letter line variation produced by edged nibs is absent as shown by the following exemplar:

 

http://www.jp29.org/cal106.jpg

 

The above exemplar was rendered using a Rotring Art pen with a .8 mm edged nib using Waterman ink on Rhodia paper.

Actually, I think the following is a better illustration:

 

http://www.jp29.org/cal23.jpg

[James Pickering]

  Free Citizen said:

  James Pickering said:

The above exemplar was rendered using a Rotring Art pen with a .8 mm edged nib using Waterman ink on Rhodia paper.

James, the second exemplar is so much better. The 0.8 mm edged nib would be equivalent to a Fine for a Manuscript or Osmiroid? BTW, that is a nice pic of you taken by your grandson. Interestingly, that is how I hold my caps too

Actually, Lim, that is an approximate dimension. I do not measure the width of such nibs which are "out of the box" 1.1 mm nibbed pens that I narrow by grinding so that they they will produce letter forms appropriate for Rhodia/Clairefontaine lined pad paper use. They approximate "extra fine" Osmiroid/Manuscript nibs.

 

Brian will appreciate your compliment, Lim.

 

Some of the nicest people I know hold their FP caps that way.

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

..... I learned that if I write on a small stack of papers instead of a desk, I have more control. I'm guessing this is because the papers act somewhat like a pillow and provide a little feedback to the pen (not quite as exaggerated, but similar to trying to write into a fluffy pillow with a spoon).....

 

Yes, Jeffrey, that is a good technique and your observation is correct. Do not use too thick a pad, though.

 

 

  Quote

..... if I alter my normal grip so that I move the pen up to rest against the joint of my middle finger (instead of just below the joint) I gain more control over the pen .....

 

I noticed you mentioned this elsewhere, Jeffrey. If it does help your writing then by all means do it -- I think it might inhibit finishing your descenders and Majuscule flourishes, however. If you study my pen hold and writing position photos you will notice that I position the pen shaft/barrel against the large knuckle of my first finger (on the outside) and on the first knuckle of my middle finger which is curled up with the others to provide a "rest pad". This is the pen hold I advocate, Jeffrey.

 

  Quote

..... But these discoveries also lead me to some unhappy discoveries. I am not writing from the shoulder (I tried and it was very bad!) I'm writing mostly from my wrist and fingers .....

 

This also will interfere with good letter formation and, especially, producing well formed flourishes.

 

  Quote

PS -- Mr. Pickering, in one of your exemplars (on your website) you mentioned writing a letter to your wife every day. I thought that was so wonderful that I started doing the same, much to my wife's delight. I'm also quite happy with the idea as I not only get a chance to make my wife smile a little bit more every morning, but I get to practice writing!

 

Yes, I write Beverly a love note every day in my best cursive Italic handwriting. It is my way of expressing my love and appreciation to my soul mate. Of course, there is the ancillary benefit you mention, Jeffrey.

 

James

Edited December 3, 2004 by James Pickering

[James Pickering]

  Free Citizen said:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v254/FreeCitizen/msg04120101.jpg

 

This transcript was rendered with a Sailor Super Script Calligraphy Pen with supplied Sailor black ink cartridge. You will notice the variation in line width because I was interrupted during the transcript.

Your Italic writing is getting better -- more handsome -- with each passing day, Lim. Great stuff!

 

James

[JDShaffer]

Mr. Pickering,

 

Ah I see that I mis-read your pen hold photograph. I will try it without resting against the middle finger.

 

My edit here: I didn't explain the hold well, Jeffrey and I have changed it to read: The shaft is held between the thumb and first finger and rests against the large knuckle of the first finger (on the outside) and on the first knuckle of the middle finger which is curled up with the others to provide a "rest pad" on the writing surface. The writing action is in the manner of "painting" the letters rather than painstakingly forming them ...... James

 

However, I'm not quite sure I can write from the shoulder without many months (years?) of practice. Perhaps I should practice it when I can. Doesn't your arm or forearm get tired? Are you resting your arm on the table any when you write this way?

 

As related to daily letters to your / my wife. I hope I did not come across as merely using it as a means for practice. I, too, enjoy writing to my wife. Before we got married I wrote her a long letter every day and mailed it to her. After we got married, I stopped writing to her (and she's mentioned that many times!) But after reading that you send a letter to your wife (write a note) every day, I was reminded of what I used to do for mine, and decided even a short note everyday would be nice and perhaps will bring a smile to her face.

 

Thank you, again, for being such a positive and wonderful inspiration.

 

Most Sincerely,

 

Jeffrey

Edited December 3, 2004 by James Pickering

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

Here's the formentioned "re-write" using italic handwriting with my iridium-nibbed FP...

 

http://www.osaka-gu.ac.jp/php/jds/misc/better-bad-example.jpg

 

Hmm.. slightly better than before.

Jds

How nice and clear -- eminently legible -- your handwriting is becoming, Jeffrey. Very good!

 

James

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

Well, here's my poor rendition of Mr. Pickering's excellent examplar on using "out of the box" fountain pens. As luck would have it, this was also written with an "out of the box" pen. Though I wish mine wrote as beautifully as Mr. Pickering's! (Perhaps mine is broken??)

 

http://www.osaka-gu.ac.jp/php/jds/misc/jp-copy1.jpg

Your handwriting is maturing with each rendition, Jeffrey, particularly the letter form quality. Now we need to start working on the descender terminations.

 

James

[JDShaffer]

  Quote

Your handwriting is maturing with each rendition, Jeffrey, particularly the letter form quality. Now we need to start working on the descender terminations.

 

Thank you very much for the compliments. I still see enormous differences between your beautiful writing and mine, though. I feel there is a long way to go! (I just need to remember I'm not in a hurry!)

 

As for my descenders, yes. They do seem determined to go in every possible direction. I also want to take a little of the curve out of my basic "a" shapes and have them slightly more squared off, but it just doesn't come naturally -- not even semi-naturally, yet.

 

Jeffrey

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

..... I'm not quite sure I can write from the shoulder without many months (years?) of practice. Perhaps I should practice it when I can. Doesn't your arm or forearm get tired? Are you resting your arm on the table any when you write this way?

It will come quicker than you think, Jeffrey -- practice and persevere. Most of the movement involves the lower arm using the elbow as a pivot. I rest my lower arm flat on the table and I keep my wrist straight, but relaxed, at all times. My hand and arm never get tired -- I can write for hours in a comfortable and relaxed manner.

 

  Quote

As related to daily letters to your / my wife. I hope I did not come across as merely using it as a means for practice. I, too, enjoy writing to my wife. Before we got married I wrote her a long letter every day and mailed it to her. After we got married, I stopped writing to her (and she's mentioned that many times!) But after reading that you send a letter to your wife (write a note) every day, I was reminded of what I used to do for mine, and decided even a short note everyday would be nice and perhaps will bring a smile to her face.

No, your heart is good, Jeffrey -- the practice is strictly incidental. Beverly has saved every note I have written her -- she now has going on ten thousand stored away in boxes (I didn't know she was doing that until last year).

 

James

[James Pickering]

Excuse this cross-post please, but it is very apropos here:

 

Pen hold:

 

I often start off my basic calligraphy classes by stating that learning how to write well with a pen or pencil is similar to learning how to play golf well.

 

One of the first things taught in golf lessons is how to hold a club correctly. Many teaching professionals assert that the key in learning how to play golf well lies in attaining the correct hold.

 

I believe that the same principle holds true with regard to writing implements in handwriting.

 

It is my perception, based on teaching calligraphy to many hundreds of beginners, that numerous people these days do not hold pens and pencils correctly, and that causes much frustration for those who aspire to write well. Just as in golf, you can get by with an incorrect hold, but the quality of your penmanship may never meet your expectations. I suspect that the widespread use of ballpointed pens (and maybe the teaching methodologies in schools) has resulted in the emergence of a restrictive, tight grip of the pen or pencil very close to the tip that results in letter formation using the wrist and fingers rather than the arm and shoulders.

 

Of course, if you are satisfied with the appearance of your present handwriting and are comfortable with its rendition -- please don't change anything!

 

The information in this paragraph derives from my own personal experience: When I was taught cursive handwriting as a schoolboy in northern England (1939) all right handed students (see the information relating to left-handed writers) were taught, and required to use, the same pen or pencil hold ..........

 

http://www.jp29.org/cal100.JPG

 

.......... which I have employed ever since. The shaft is held between the thumb and first finger and rests against the large knuckle of the first finger (on the outside) and on the first knuckle of the middle finger which is curled up with the others to provide a "rest pad" on the writing surface. The writing action is in the manner of "painting" the letters rather than painstakingly forming them.

 

Individuals may want to modify the above pen hold slightly in order to obtain a more comfortable writing position.

 

I have always had great empathy for left-handed writers for handwriting is the province of right- handed writers in the western world. Following are some online references for left-handed writers with particular emphasis on pen hold:

 

Teaching Left-Handers to Write - Handedness Research Institute

 

Left Handness -- Gunnlaugur S.E. Briem

 

Left-Hand Writer's Notes from John Mottishaw's Nib Works

 

John Mottishaw's Left-Hand Writer's Page

 

Pen hold and hand position for writing left-handed

 

Varieties of left-handed writing

 

Of course, if you are satisfied with the appearance of your present handwriting and are comfortable with its rendition -- please don't change anything!

 

James

Edited December 3, 2004 by James Pickering

[James Pickering]

The following diagram relating to correct attitude of the pen nib for Italic writing was prepared by one of my students, Sandy McCauley.

 

It depicts a broad edged nib, but the principle applies to all edged nibs, no matter how narrow they may be. Numerous fountain pen owners have their iridium tipped nib fountain pens reground to an edged profile by after-market "nibmeisters".

 

http://www.jp29.org/cal107.jpg

[James Pickering]

I would like to repeat my concept of "good" handwriting here:

 

  Tytyvyllus said:

Is good handwriting just clear and easily readable something that a computer & printer can do better or is there an artistic facet that comes in?  If all of the 't's are not identical is it still good handwriting?

 

 

Curious,

 

Kurt H

To me the most important quality of good handwriting is legibility (readability).

 

I think that ease of rendering by the writer is very important also -- that it can be rendered at a practical "everyday use" speed in a relaxed, effortless manner so that extensive writing can be produced without undue fatigue.

 

In my opinion, good handwriting is enhanced by being beautiful and elegant -- but those properties are hard to define and depend on individual tastes and concepts ("beauty is in the eye of the beholder"). To me, evenness of the writing and a pleasing, balanced layout on the paper are important attributes. I don't think that the precision of presentation quality calligraphy letter formation is a consideration.

 

By definition, handwriting involves the rendition of text on a suitable writing surface by individuals using hand held writing instruments. To me, a great virtue of handwriting is that it is personal -- a unique reflection of the individual writer -- as opposed to the output of a technological device.

 

James

[James Pickering]

Here is an old rough (Elizabeth Barrett Browning) I dug up that illustrates my rapid Italic formata ligatured running hand. I may replace this image because it was written in haste on very "toothy" paper (Fabriano, I believe) and I don't like the quality of the letter forms -- especially the ugly majuscule "L" on the first line. It is a useful hand, however, because it can be written at great speed. I hardly use it any more, though, because I am so enarmoured with the beautiful Cataneo style cursive Italic (Cancellaresca corsiva).

 

http://www.jp29.org/File0038.jpg

[JDShaffer]

Thank you, Mr. Pickering, for the useful information. I have been experimenting with "writing from the shoulder" since yesterday, and I can't quite get it. I keep fiddling with pen holds and arm placement. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a few more specific questions to see if I understand, correctly, what you are explaining...

 

Pen hold:

Do you ONLY grip the pen with your thumb and forefinger? Does it touch the middle finger at all? Are you "pinching" the pen between the two fingers or only strong enough to keep the pen from falling? Do you rest your hand on the paper "palm-side" down or with the palm facing more to the left?

 

Shoulder movement:

When writing from the "shoulder", should be elbow be resting on the table? My forearm? If my forearm is resting on the table, should it be "heavy" on the table, or be able to lightly skid across its surface? (what I'm finding is that if I might it "light" on the table, then my forearm starts to tire quickly.) And lastly, do you use a small amount of finger or wrist movement when forming letters, or is it 98%-100% from the shoulder? (small amount being something like 90%-92% shoulder)

 

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I certainly don't want to train myself and practice in an incorrect manner. Fixing things now will make things easier much later!

 

Thank you again, for your time and energy!

 

Cheers,

 

A sleepy Jeffrey

:blink: (trying to stay awake...)

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

Thank you, Mr. Pickering, for the useful information. I have been experimenting with "writing from the shoulder" since yesterday, and I can't quite get it. I keep fiddling with pen holds and arm placement. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a few more specific questions to see if I understand, correctly, what you are explaining.....

This is where it gets tricky, Jeffrey. You can only go so far in developing handwriting techniques by reading a book -- or in this case from reading and examining my exemplars online. Sooner or later there comes the time when physical presence classroom instruction is needed so that the teacher can observe individual problems and requirements and prescribe corrective action -- also demonstrate techniques in real time. In other words, tailor the instruction to individual needs and physical requirements. We are now at that point with the techniques we are discussing here -- but I will give it a shot in this Forum.

 

  Quote

Do you ONLY grip the pen with your thumb and forefinger?

Yes

 

  Quote

Does it touch the middle finger at all?

Yes, at the location of the first knuckle. I didn't explain this well, Jeffrey -- I have re-written the text for the exemplar photo to read: "The shaft is held between the thumb and first finger and rests against the large knuckle of the first finger (on the outside) and on the first knuckle of the middle finger which is curled up with the others to provide a "rest pad" on the writing surface. The writing action is in the manner of "painting" the letters rather than painstakingly forming them."

 

 

  Quote

Are you "pinching" the pen between the two fingers or only strong enough to keep the pen from falling?

No pinching at all -- a light hold -- just enough to control letter formation.

 

  Quote

Do you rest your hand on the paper "palm-side" down or with the palm facing more to the left?

On the edge of the palm -- inside of the palm facing left.

 

 

  Quote

When writing from the "shoulder", should be elbow be resting on the table?

Actually I only "write from the shoulder" -- lifting the elbow from the table -- when "swashing" or flourishing majuscules.

 

  Quote

If my forearm is resting on the table, should it be "heavy" on the table, or be able to lightly skid across its surface?

I don't know how to assess light or heavy -- I just rest it on the table using the elbow as a pivot for arm movement.

 

  Quote

And lastly, do you use a small amount of finger or wrist movement when forming letters, or is it 98%-100% from the shoulder?

I don't use ANY finger or wrist movement when forming letters (except for swashing majuscules) I keep my wrist straight but relaxed -- the movement is all in the lower arm. Actually it is very hard to explain the concept on paper -- I need to be able to show you and observe your application.

 

  Quote

Sorry for all the questions, but I certainly don't want to train myself and practice in an incorrect manner. Fixing things now will make things easier much later!

I wish I was there to tutor you in person, Jeffrey, for that is the only way I can be sure that we have correctly assessed your problems and are applying the proper corrective measures.

 

James

Edited December 3, 2004 by James Pickering

[JDShaffer]

Thank you for your answers, Mr. Pickering. I believe I have a much better idea of how you write and move your arm now. But I agree, text and Q&A can only go so far... Perhaps I could shoot some video of my trying to write and send you a link to view it. If you have Apple's Quicktime 6 (or newer) on your computer, you can see the movies I can make (don't worry, they're small and load rather quickly.)

 

Would you mind if I try doing this (video)? Then you might be able to see how I'm trying to write...

 

Jeffrey (with the tired forearm!)

[James Pickering]

  JDShaffer said:

As for my descenders, yes. They do seem determined to go in every possible direction.    I also want to take a little of the curve out of my basic "a" shapes and have them slightly more squared off, but it just doesn't come naturally -- not even semi-naturally, yet.

 

Descenders should be finished off slowly -- that is, you should slow down as you approach the bottom of the stroke -- just as you do when applying the brakes on your car -- and make sure there is a smooth curvature where appropriate .....

http://www.jp29.org/cal108.jpg

 

..... most people try to form them too fast -- they rush them.

 

And we might as well include swashed or flourished descenders depicted by the "k" and "q" above. The same principles apply when forming them, never forgetting Edward Johnston's admonition that all flourishes should "crack like a whip" -- they should never be tentative or noodle-like. You have to have courage and purpose when flourishing.

 

James

[James Pickering]

Here is an exemplar that I think illustrates descenders and flourishes very well:

 

http://www.jp29.org/cal109.jpg

[Free Citizen]

  James Pickering said:

By definition, handwriting involves the rendition of text on a suitable writing surface by individuals using hand held writing instruments. To me, a great virtue of handwriting is that it is personal -- a unique reflection of the individual writer -- as opposed to the output of a technological device.

Yes Sir, and this can have a very strong effect. I witnessed such an effect when I saw, on the tele, Chancelor Helmut Kohl sprang into action. His walking pace was frantic and in his hand was a handwritten letter from President Clinton.