Dip Nibs And Steel Fountain Pen Nibs

[Cryptos]

Okay clever people, can someone enlighten EoC on the material difference between the steel that fountain pens are made from and that of steel dip nibs please?

 

Further to this, does making steel 'stainless' reduce its potential for flexibility?

 

Was think about this yesterday, when the thought struck that many fountain pens already use steel nibs, so why not make those steel nibs the same way as the dip pens but in stainless.

 

You see where this is going?

[ac12]

Dip pen nibs are NOT stainless steel. Well except for only one vintage nib that I know of.

Dip pen nibs are not tipped, and are considered disposable. When the tip wears, you throw it away.

 

Because the VAST majority of fountain pen users do not write with flex.

And the number of sprung nibs and customer service issues resulting from that is not worth the hassle.

 

This topic has been discussed MANY times.

If you do a search, you will find the many discussion on this subject.

Edited December 10, 2015 by ac12

[rwilsonedn]

I'm not a metallurgist by any means, but yes, I believe the steels are quite different. Spring steel for dip pen nibs is so easily attacked by water and other oxidants that the nibs are often covered in a protective layer of goo before they are shipped. True stainless nibs are very resistant to oxidation, but they are rigid.

There are, however, oxidation-resistant (but not oxidation-proof or stainless) steel nibs that are flexible. You sometimes run into them on vintage pens, and even after long use they can be quite nice semi-flex writers. I suspect this was achieved by surface treatment of some sort, such as depositing a less reactive metal on the steel. But I don't know. Dip pen manufacturers would not bother with such surface treatments because they know the untipped pens are going to get a pretty thorough cleaning after each use, and are going to wear out and be thrown away long before they rust or pit.

ron

[dcwaites]

I have nibs made of -

steel, with brown lacquer

stainless steel, plain, not shiny

stainless steel, plain, shiny

steel, blued

copper, gold plated

brass, plain

bronze, plain

 

None of these are tipped, but some are very robust, and others are delicate.

 

Almost all stainless steel nibs are tipped, but some very cheap ones with italic nibs for calligraphy aren't.

 

The thickness of the metal of a nib, as well as the shape of the nib, is what governs how flexible the pen is, not whether it is made for a fountain pen or a dip pen.

[Cryptos]

Okay, let's put the question the other way around. Is it possible to make a flexible dip nib using the same steel that is used for steel fountain pen nibs?

[dcwaites]

Okay, let's put the question the other way around. Is it possible to make a flexible dip nib using the same steel that is used for steel fountain pen nibs?

 

Yes. The sheet the nib is punched from just has to be thin enough, and the nib should be shaped so that when the tines are pushed upwards, they spread outward. Not all nib geometries do this.

[Cryptos]

Okay, this will probably sound a bit stupid, but as dip nib makers are still making nibs why doesn't anyone make them out of the fountain pen nib steel and with an appropriate curvature to fit (say) a standard #5 feed?

EoC cannot help feeling that there is a piece of information missing. For example, take Jowo, could they make their #5 nib with the same overall geometry as (say) a Zebra G dip nib?

 

There's got to be something obvious that this one is overlooking. Apologies for worrying at this like an old bone.

[dcwaites]

Modern dip pen makers (i.e. D. Leonardt and Brause) do make dip pen nibs out of the same stainless steel as is used for fountain pen nibs. The sheets are just thinner.

 

Dip pen nibs are made to fit a standard dip pen holder. So, the question is, what size FP nib fits a standard dip pen holder? The answer is #6 FP nibs will fit into many dip pen holders. I use a #6 Jinhao and a #6 Huashilai in dip pen holders, along with my M. Myers and Perry dip pen nibs.

 

The geometries are not identical, but #6 nibs will fit into any dip pen holder that has some flexibility in its fitting, i.e. the Tachikawa holders.

 

[Noihvo]

[Cryptos]

Heh! A reverse Frankenpen!

[Noihvo]

 

[Randal6393]

Previous threads talk about mounting fountain pen nibs in dip pen holders. That works out pretty well, most of the time.

 

I suspect that the reason stainless steel is not often used in dip pen flex nibs is because the annealing/tempering process that works on regular steel may not be quite as effective on stainless steel.

 

Besides, if the manufacturer made too good a nib for dip pen flex work, how would he ever sell the customer another?

 

Enjoy,

[Cryptos]

 

Besides, if the manufacturer made too good a nib for dip pen flex work, how would he ever sell the customer another?

 

That may be true, but it would seem that if such a manufacturer made a stainless steel flexible fountain pen nib - with the characteristics of a dip nib - that would be a winner, no?

[dcwaites]

 

That may be true, but it would seem that if such a manufacturer made a stainless steel flexible fountain pen nib - with the characteristics of a dip nib - that would be a winner, no?

 

Perhaps EOC should consider the Pilot Falcon Nib?

[Piper 987]

I just received a Ranga dip pen the other day. It has a feed and a Wality fine nib. With a feed to hold a fair bit of ink, it writes for about a dozen lines or so before needing re-dipping.

 

After reading this thread, I switched the nib out for a Noodler's flex nib from one of my Ahabs.

 

The Noodler's nib is a fair bit longer than the Wality so the feed will no longer go as far back into the pen body but otherwise, it works just fine. But then, a Noodler's flex nib is hardly as flexible as many of the 'proper' dip pen nibs such as a Brause Rose or a Leonardt Extra Fine Principal so really, what's the point (pun intended)?

 

That said, you can always put a Brause Rose or another very flexible dip pen nib nib on your Ahab.

[jabberwock11]

There are good reasons as to why dip pen nibs are not made in a similar fashion to fountain pen nibs. From a business stand point, the customers have not asked for it. Making a more expensive product when there is seemingly no real demand is a pretty big gamble...especially when your customers are pretty fanatical about tradition. From a manufacturing stand point it would require retooling existing machines (or buying new ones) for a product with questionable potential. In the end, it would mean asking manufacturers of a niche product to take a large financial chance on something that almost no one seems interested in.

 

There is something to be said for fountain pen nibs and something to be said for dip pen nibs. I like both and have even used fountain pen nibs in my pen holders, but I honestly doubt that I would consider buying a fountain pen style dip pen nib unless it was seriously revolutionary, and that sort of innovation costs time and money. Time and money spent designing something that no one is asking for and that would require significant marketing to get a small niche market to adopt is time and money poorly spent.

 

It's a nice idea, but I doubt that it will ever happen.

[Cryptos]

Other way round. A dip pen style fountain pen nib. From the responses in this thread it would seem that there is very little difference in manufacturing either, or in materials (tipping notwithstanding). The issue with putting a dip nib in fountain pen section (assuming it will fit) is that the nib will rust fairly quickly. If there was a non-rusting zebra G, for example, the Frankenpenning of this nib would be a dream!

[dcwaites]

The Ackerman pump pen (search for comments here on the FPN) is such a pen. A fountain pen style body designed to feed a dip pen.

As mentioned above, there are makers of stainless steel dip pen nibs, including Nikko. However, they are not tipped, and will last only a few weeks of constant use.

[jabberwock11]

Other way round. A dip pen style fountain pen nib. From the responses in this thread it would seem that there is very little difference in manufacturing either, or in materials (tipping notwithstanding). The issue with putting a dip nib in fountain pen section (assuming it will fit) is that the nib will rust fairly quickly. If there was a non-rusting zebra G, for example, the Frankenpenning of this nib would be a dream!

 

Wow, I got that mixed up. Yeah, there actually is some demand for this. I would love to see it happen, but I think that there would still be a need to retool existing machines or buy new ones, and in an industry with marginal profits, I just don't know anyone who would be willing to take the financial chance on a pretty small niche within a niche market.

 

There are a few small innovators producing pens using dip pen nibs, but (as you stated) those nibs die quickly. I would absolutely be interested in a fountain pen with a quality Zebra G type nib that would last for years rather than weeks.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

There has been in the past some stainless steel or other non-gold white metal nibs that have been flexible. I'm not sure what the alloys they were made of were specifically, but they were quite nice. I think that currently fountain pen nibs are made of specific alloys that don't flex as much. I wonder if part of this is due to lower demand for flexible nibs and the cost of making nibs in low volume. Also, people who aren't familiar with flexible nibs may be likely to spring and damage them which could cost manufacturers a lot of money.

 

Many dip pen nibs, especially the flexible ones, are made of steel alloys that have good spring but do rust. I think with dip pens, most of the people using those know something about what they are doing, so flexible dip pen nibs are more common.

 

Dillon