Is There A Standard For Permanent/archival Fountain Pen Inks?

[Sandy1]

 

On that note....

Anyone have a clue what the pH of the R&K Documentus inks might be? I was flushing Hellblau out a pen and -- as per normal -- I flushed with distilled water and then with ammonia solution. At which point it came out sort of chunky, and then in thin ribbons of ink. Weird and a bit disturbing. So I flushed the heck out the the pen with more distilled water, and then with vinegar solution, and then, since there still seemed to be a few flecks floating around, a whole lot more distilled water.... Letting the pen drain into paper towels now.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

Hi,

 

As to the clean-up of R&K Documentus inks:

> I recall reading that another Member had a similar anomalous experience. Without 1st hand hands-on experience, the only thing I am comfortable to suggest is to keep the pen's innards wet (to avoid the ink becoming fixed in place) and to contact R&K.

> Member lapis mentioned that R&K has a cleansing fluid (Reiniger http://rohrer-klingner.de/index.php?id=13) so perhaps that might come in handy, though I'd likely reach for the Rapido-Eze as a stop-gap measure. (?)

 

Fingers crossed that your pen will be thoroughly cleansed in a day or two. Please let us know how things progress.

 

Bye,

S1

[Piper 987]

I'm wondering what it is that I'm ever going to commit to paper that needs to last several hundred to a thousand years.

 

And if anyone cares to kite one of my cheques, they're going to be very disappointed.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Piper 987

[dcwaites]

I'm wondering what it is that I'm ever going to commit to paper that needs to last several hundred to a thousand years.

 

And if anyone cares to kite one of my cheques, they're going to be very disappointed.

 

Speak to an archaeologist. Ask them what documents they would like to have from a thousand years ago.

Things like shopping lists, letters, Cease and Desist Playing Bagpipes letters, job application CVs, recipes and the like.

Sadly, so much is now going on email, and will disappear in a decade or so.

 

I remember watching a documentary where an old Roman fort in England was being excavated, and how excited they were to find letters to home from one of the soldiers.

[storyteller]

I'm wondering what it is that I'm ever going to commit to paper that needs to last several hundred to a thousand years.

 

And if anyone cares to kite one of my cheques, they're going to be very disappointed.

 

Excellent

 

But with regards to your first comment... you never know....

[inkstainedruth]

 

 

 

Hi,

 

As to the clean-up of R&K Documentus inks:

> I recall reading that another Member had a similar anomalous experience. Without 1st hand hands-on experience, the only thing I am comfortable to suggest is to keep the pen's innards wet (to avoid the ink becoming fixed in place) and to contact R&K.

> Member lapis mentioned that R&K has a cleansing fluid (Reiniger http://rohrer-klingner.de/index.php?id=13) so perhaps that might come in handy, though I'd likely reach for the Rapido-Eze as a stop-gap measure. (?)

 

Fingers crossed that your pen will be thoroughly cleansed in a day or two. Please let us know how things progress.

 

Bye,

S1

 

 

Well, I flushed it with vinegar solution, and then with a LOT more distilled water, and that seems to have done the trick. At least as far as I can tell; I pulled the converter and there isn't the telltale stain around the opening that I get with IG inks that haven't been sufficiently flushed/soaked. But I wish I had known ahead of time what the pH was. I mean, if it had been an iron gall ink I would have started with vinegar solution, no problem. But for non-IG inks, the assumption is always that they are more or less pH neutral, unless absolutely advertised as otherwise (like the Noodler's Bay State inks -- at this point, pretty much everyone knows they're very alkaline).

And I do remember (vaguely) the post about the R&K cleaning fluid -- but AFAIK it's not readily available in the US (and I likely also treated it the way I did posts about the stuff that the De Atramentis Document inks can be mixed with to thin them out: i.e., as "Oh, that's slightly interesting...."

It was a bit frustrating (I've had a lousy week so far, and it's so far pretty much on par with the lousy week I had last week -- and it's ONLY Tuesday; as in "What else can go wrong...?"). And the worst part is that I really liked Hellblau up to that point: it was a pretty color, only spread a little, and wasn't a hard starter (I have Dunkelblau in another pen and I'm less enamored of it because it seems to spread more and isn't as interesting a color; it's only plusses are that it again is not a hard starter, and it does seem to be pretty waterproof).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Sandy1]

 

Well, I flushed it with vinegar solution, and then with a LOT more distilled water, and that seems to have done the trick. At least as far as I can tell; I pulled the converter and there isn't the telltale stain around the opening that I get with IG inks that haven't been sufficiently flushed/soaked. But I wish I had known ahead of time what the pH was. I mean, if it had been an iron gall ink I would have started with vinegar solution, no problem. But for non-IG inks, the assumption is always that they are more or less pH neutral, unless absolutely advertised as otherwise (like the Noodler's Bay State inks -- at this point, pretty much everyone knows they're very alkaline).

And I do remember (vaguely) the post about the R&K cleaning fluid -- but AFAIK it's not readily available in the US (and I likely also treated it the way I did posts about the stuff that the De Atramentis Document inks can be mixed with to thin them out: i.e., as "Oh, that's slightly interesting...."

It was a bit frustrating (I've had a lousy week so far, and it's so far pretty much on par with the lousy week I had last week -- and it's ONLY Tuesday; as in "What else can go wrong...?"). And the worst part is that I really liked Hellblau up to that point: it was a pretty color, only spread a little, and wasn't a hard starter (I have Dunkelblau in another pen and I'm less enamored of it because it seems to spread more and isn't as interesting a color; it's only plusses are that it again is not a hard starter, and it does seem to be pretty waterproof).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

Hi,

 

Many thanks for letting us know how things turned-out, and that what it took to reach a happy ending was fairly simple; and posting a 'Yikes' Topic in the Repair Forum was avoided

 

Bye,

S1

[Pterodactylus]

Why do you assume that most inks are ph neutral?

Beside Noodlers I´m not aware of other manufacturers which advertise this (I consider this as a marketing gag and not as a quality aspect).

Most of the manufacturers do not post any info regarding this product aspect.

E.g. Some of the Pelikan 4001 are quite acidic, if I remember correct none of it is ph neutral, I think there is also one which is alcalic.

I see also no reason why a ink should be ph neutral, so your assumption was a bit surprising for me.

 

And if you use chemicals (acidic or alcalic) to flush your pen there is always the possibility that the ink reacts with it, and e.g. flocculate or causes other (unwanted) reactions.

But also this is not the fault of the ink.....

[storyteller]

Why do you assume that most inks are ph neutral?

Beside Noodlers I´m not aware of other manufacturers which advertise this (I consider this as a marketing gag and not as a quality aspect).

Most of the manufacturers do not post any info regarding this product aspect.

E.g. Some of the Pelikan 4001 are quite acidic, if I remember correct none of it is ph neutral, I think there is also one which is alcalic.

I see also no reason why a ink should be ph neutral, so your assumption was a bit surprising for me.

 

And if you use chemicals (acidic or alcalic) to flush your pen there is always the possibility that the ink reacts with it, and e.g. flocculate or causes other (unwanted) reactions.

But also this is not the fault of the ink.....

 

I don't think that the person concerned thought that the ink was either pH neutral or assumed that it should have been. I rather had the impression that extremes of pH were not expected, which is understandable. The manufacturer didn't mention anything special as far as I am aware.

 

The pen was also flushed first with distilled water so that the likelihood of any immediate chemical reaction was minimized.

 

Flushing with ammonia solution is common and almost standard procedure for fountain pens. Only iron gall inks require a vinegar flush to remove iron deposits and even then, only if there has been a precipitation in the ink or if the ink has been left to dry in the pen.

 

Most people on this forum that are interested in inks know that very few are pH neutral. As you mention, some supposedly "well-behaved" or "safe" manufacturer inks have been reported as being almost as acidic/corrosive as iron gall formulations. Others are extremely basic or alkaline.

 

Personally, I appreciate when a fellow member brings a potential problem to my attention, it enables discussion and solutions to be found. I understand that not everyone will want to put iron gall inks into their pens. But the same people should also be aware of very acidic non iron-gall inks. Similarly, not all ink-sacks will digest every ink that is out there either...

 

This is not necessarily a problem with the ink, as you rightly point out, but any responsible manufacturer should inform the user of eventual incompatibilities and precautions.

 

However, as long as we can discover which inks are safe with which pens and why (or why not), then everybody will be happy.

[FLZapped]

Micro-rant.

 

Dear ladies, gentlemen, and those of tender years,

 

Quite frankly I am irked that FP users go along without an ISO Standard for FP inks, and conform to those of ballpoints, rollerballs and other implements to achieve ISO certification.

 

And in the meantime, Nathan (aka Mr. Noodler's) doesn't care about ISO and adheres to his own standards. Seems to be working for him **Shrug**

[frankb3]

And in the meantime, Nathan (aka Mr. Noodler's) doesn't care about ISO and adheres to his own standards. Seems to be working for him **Shrug**

Getting ISO certification costs a small fortune and without it you can't advertise that you are ISO compliant. You can't even find out what the standards are without paying for them. I don't blame Nathan in the slightest for not dealing with the ISO folks.

[Sandy1]

And in the meantime, "Nathan (aka Mr. Noodler's) doesn't care about ISO and adheres to his own standard"s. Seems to be working for him **Shrug**

 

 

Indeed!

 

The innovators are not prone to 'colour inside the lines', which is wonderful. (I too do new stuff.)

 

I have numerous bottles of Noodler's inks that I reckon are outstanding.

 

While you are so bold to speak for Nathan Tardif, claiming that "Nathan (aka Mr. Noodler's) doesn't care about ISO and adheres to his own standard", perhaps you would be so generous as to tell us just what are his standards.

 

We await your kind reply.

 

This whole ISO thing seems a boondoggle to me, and can be debated, but I'm out of it - I have enough WOMBATs.

 

pardon me if I'm a bit more frosty than usual.

 

 

Bye,

S1

Edited September 10, 2017 by Sandy1

[dcwaites]

The ISO standard tests simply tell you that under certain circumstances (certain solvents, certain degree of light and oxygen exposure), an ink will remain visible to a particular degree. They do not tell you that the ink will be viable until the end of time. However, certain EU requirements stipulate that official documents should be signed with an ISO-Certified Document ink. Like Airbus A-380 plans.

 

Some inks are known to last thousands of years without fading. These are the carbon-based inks.

 

Some inks are known to resist the vast bulk of known solvents found in a standard chem lab. These are the cellulose-reactive Bulletproof and Invincible inks.

 

Some inks are designed to show any attempt at alteration. These are the fraud-resistant Wardens inks.

 

Some inks will simply, after drying, resist being washed off with hot water, such as the Pilot Black and Blue inks.

 

Some inks, like Waterman Serenity Blue, are designed to wash out of school uniforms quite easily.

 

There are different degrees and types of Permanence. You choose an ink according to your needs.

In a Chem lab, I would choose Noodler's Black.

For a Museum label, I would choose Pelikan Fount India or Sailor Kiwaguro Black.

For a mailing envelope, I would choose Pilot Blue.

For a plant label in a garden exposed to sun, I would use the Armageddon-resistant Noodler's Kung Te-Cheng.

[Sandy1]

Thanks to Member dcwaites. Its always good to have another hand at the oars, who can explain things and watch the following sea.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Sandy1

[dcwaites]

Thanks to Member dcwaites. Its always good to have another hand at the oars, who can explain things and watch the following sea.

 

Having spend some time as a marine technician, I always took a keen interest in the sea, especially when it was all around me...

 

I was channel-surfing one day, and came across Robson Green in a small boat. I said to myself "I know that piece of water, it's the channel between Rabaul in New Britain, and New Ireland". And it was so, he was filming an episode of "Extreme Fishing", and was doing it around Rabaul. I was able to recognise the colour of the water, and the size and pattern of the waves. It gave me a new understanding of how the Pacific Islanders had been able to use the sea to navigate.

[amberleadavis]

Micro-rant.

 

Dear ladies, gentlemen, and those of tender years,

 

Quite frankly I am irked that FP users go along without an ISO Standard for FP inks, and conform to those of ballpoints, rollerballs and other implements to achieve ISO certification.

 

Why should there not be an ISO Standard for FP inks? Are the materials we work with beyond the scope of establishing ISO Standard/s?

 

^{And what about those who use time-tested media such as India Ink? Should they be switching to the ISO ballpoint standard?}

 

Make no mistake — the ink Co.s and individuals who have devoted considerable time, loot, effort, intellectual capital and have persevered in dealings with the ISO cabal, (that alone just might inspire me to support kendo in the boardroom), to acquire ISO certification are to be congratulated. Their achievements are no to be belittled.

 

I reckon that doing what it takes to achieve and keep ISO certification has advanced and lead to innovation in FP inks, for which I am grateful.

 

^{Yet I wonder that if, by having an ISO Standard for FP ink, things would not improve even more. (?)}

 

No one has asked me to use an ISO ink, though I if that happened, I'd reluctantly switch to something-or-other. Until then I'll use iron-gall and robust aniline dye inks, and devil the hindmost.

 

Realistically the low quantity or % of dedicated (fanatic) FP users might not make the effort worthwhile, so this is where I'll end. Whew!

 

Bye,

S1

 

 

I new you would pipe in ... I am still appalled that light fastness doesn't even make the list of requirements for archival.

[Sandy1]

 

 

I new you would pipe in ... I am still appalled that light fastness doesn't even make the list of requirements for archival.

 

 

Hi,

 

Ah, this is a bit odd.

 

As I have ben told, 'archival' requires the loving and skilled attention of an Archivist and that the stuff be kept in an Archive. To the best of my knowledge, that does not include hanging documents out the window.

 

I reckon there should be a distinction between terms such as archival and robust, durable, etc.

 

We also have the matter that stuff trying to enter the Archive does not degrade that which is already in the Archive - treatment might be fumigation, neutralising acid-laden paper, etc

(I don't know if Sharpie docs can gain entry, so I hang stuff written with Sharpies out the window to off-gas and be washed by the rain.)

 

 

Bye,

S1

Edited September 13, 2017 by Sandy1

[amberleadavis]

LOL

 

Hey, we treat our important documents with loving care ...

 

We roll them up, show them in windows, sail them across seas and through the rain, and then water board the document in order to make copies, and that's just the Declaration of Independence.

 

https://www.livescience.com/46663-preserving-declaration-of-independence.html

 

I'm pretty sure that only KTC could withstand that sort of brutality.

 

So, I think by default Archival ink (for the US) should withstand what we have done to the Declaration of Independence. Other countries may be nicer to their documents?????

 

 

 

Blunders Aged the Declaration of Independence

By Kelly Dickerson, July 3, 2014 02:12pm ET

 

 

In real life, stealing the Declaration of Independence would not be as easy as Nicholas Cage made it look in the film "National Treasure."

The historic document is displayed at the U.S. National Archives in Washington, D.C. — encased in a thick frame of titanium and aluminum, behind a pane of bulletproofglass and with a protective UV-light filter.

A $3-million camera system keeps a protective watch over the precious artifact. The Charters Monitoring System, designed by scientists at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, can detect the slightest ink-flaking or fading, along with changes in light or temperature. The system can detect damage before the human eye can even spot it, experts say. [50 Fabulous Fourth of July Facts]

 

However, the Declaration of Independence did not always have such a hallowed home, and was not always so meticulously preserved. Over the course of history, the document has been rolled up and hastily stored in canvas tubes, sailed up the Potomac River where it risked water damage, and suffered damaging sunlight for years. Ironically, the Founding Fathers' desire to preserve the document actually contributed to its wear and tear.

The original Declaration of Independence is written on parchment, a delicate and non-durable material made from stretched out animal skin. During the American Revolutionary War, members of the Continental Congress carried the declaration with them, rolled up into a tight tube. This repeated rolling and unrolling wore down the parchment and stretched it even thinner. The thinned-out document became much more likely to crack and tear.

However, the real damage came when the Founding Fathers decided they needed to make copies of the declaration. In the 18th century, it was common to take "press copies" by placing a damp sheet of paper on the original document to soak up some of the ink. Then, the ink copy was transferred to a copper plate that could be used to make several duplicates.

Timothy Matlack, a revolutionary leader and one of the official scribes of the Declaration of Independence, copied the official document. Then, 56 delegates signed it in iron ink, which is made with an acidic chemical compound that bleeds into parchment. The staining makes the ink last longer, but around 1817, just 40 years after the declaration was signed, records show that the signatures were already fading from the original, likely due to this rough copying method.

The wetness from the old copying method also damaged the parchment itself. The animal skin is not tanned before it's turned into parchment, so the material is sensitive to even the slightest bit of moisture. [7 Great Dramas in Congressional History]

In the mid-1800s, Secretary of State Daniel Webster thought the declaration should be preserved a little more carefully, and had it hung in a frame in what is now the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, D.C. However, the frame was hung directly across from a window, exposing the document to sunlight for roughly 30 years. This long exposure caused the ink and parchment to break down even faster, making the document look old and yellowed, while bleaching the signatures to the point that they were barely legible.

Finally, in 1876, just in time for the declaration's 100th birthday, government officials got more serious about preserving the historic document. Congress charged the Smithsonian Institution and the Library of Congress to come up with a long-term preservation plan. The wet copies made during the previous century removed some of the original ink, so the committee decided it would be too risky to try to chemically restore the document. Instead, they sealed the declaration between two glass plates to keep out humidity, and placed the document in a safe to keep it away from light.

When the declaration was turned over to the Library of Congress in the 1920s, it was put behind glass specially designed to block out UV light. But in the wake of the attack on Pearl Harbor, on Dec. 7, 1941, the document was taken out of its casing and evacuated to Fort Knox, a U.S. Army base in Kentucky. The top right corner of the document tore off during this move, and got a sloppy patch-up job with scotch tape and glue before the expert handlers showed up, according to the Library of Congress. Since the document was already out of its case, the experts not only removed the tape and glue and reattached the corner, but also took the opportunity to repair small nicks and tears that covered the parchment.

After World War II, the Declaration of Independence was placed in a helium-filled frame to control humidity; the frame was also fitted with a glass filter that blocks out harmful light and prevents damage from air pollution. The document now hangs in the National Archives, where experts believe it will last many more years.

Follow Kelly Dickerson on Twitter. Follow us @livescience, Facebook & Google+. Original article on Live Science.

[ParkerQuink]

I am quite interested in having a truly permanent ink, and contacted the not so helpful folks at Montblanc to see if they had more info on their inks they could share, especially on the ISO 14145-2 of their permanent blue. The telephone people and online chat people could not have been any less helpful. I've sent an e-mail in, and maybe a handwritten letter may be the next order. Very surprised that they respond this way.

[alanshutko]

Actually, the ISO standards for inks do cover lightfastness. (Here's the intro to ISO 27668-1:2009.)

 

The biggest challenge to getting an ISO standard for fountain pen ink is that the standardization process is very time consuming and involves a lot of expense. It's at least years with representatives from lots of different manufacturers. Companies don't do this unless there's a real driving need to do it.

 

Unless governments need a standard for procurement or regulation, or industry needs to have the properties of something standardized so that they can easily use commodities from different vendors, there is not a good reason to go through the effort of creating the standard.

[dcwaites]

I nominate 6 months stuck to a window in Amberleadavis' caboose as the new standard for longevity...

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/248800-fade-olympics-2013-sponsored-by-t-l-v-p-p/page-6?do=findComment&comment=2741358

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Union_Pacific_Caboose/slides/2012-05-29%2009.12.20.jpg