Flex Nibs Leave Very Wet Lines When Spread

[Precise]

The videos which I linked showed commercial flex nibs. Some were even wetter than mine. But even those which were somewhat dryer, still drew very wet fat lines. In the original post, I asked if that was unavoidable. Several answered yes, very wet fat lines are unavoidable. I've noticed that these lines are less wet if drawn with a rapid stroke.

 

The ability of flexed metal to spring back to its unflexed state is determined by the amount of strain on the metal. If it is strained at less than the yield point of the metal it will spring back, regardless of how thin it is. In fact thin parts strain less than thick parts for a given degree of deflection. Witness steel brushes. This is a simple geometrical fact. You can flex a sheet of thin mylar and it springs back. But a 3mm thick sheet of the same material (polyester) will not do this.

 

The modified nibs that I've shown all flex and return properly.

 

Alan

Edited November 20, 2015 by Precise

[Mauricio]

The videos which I linked showed commercial flex nibs. Some were even wetter than mine. But even those which were somewhat dryer, still drew very wet fat lines. In the original post, I asked if that was unavoidable. Several answered yes, very wet fat lines are unavoidable. I've noticed that these lines are less wet if drawn with a rapid stroke.

 

Alan

 

The final written result of whether a nib is wet or not is related to how the nib has been installed onto a fountain pen body, who did that nib setup, how much knowledge that individual has with flex nib setups, the quality of the nib, the tipping of the iridium in the nib, the pen body including all of its components and the actual design of the pen body and nib. You cannot over generalize and assume that just because the nib is what you call a "commercial flex" nib, it will automatically produce wet or wetter lines. If the nib has been professionally installed, that nib may be set up in with a dry, normal or a wet setup for the thin lines, and also with very specific wetness setups for the thick strokes when the nib is flexed. Professional setups are not performed by everybody. It takes lots of expertise and knowledge on the subject of flexible writing and flex nib setups. Not every fountain pen and nib is capable to respond well to advance setups. A high quality nib and pen body are as important as the knowledge of the person making that setup.

 

The final written results will also depend on other variables, which you can read in the "Nib Width" section of the following article in my website ... Grading Flex Nibs

 

 

The ability of flexed metal to spring back to its unflexed state is determined by the amount of strain on the metal. If it is strained at less than the yield point of the metal it will spring back, regardless of how thin it is. In fact thin parts strain less than thick parts for a given degree of deflection. Witness steel brushes. This is a simple geometrical fact. You can flex a sheet of thin mylar and it springs back. But a 3mm thick sheet of the same material (polyester) will not do this.

 

Alan

 

​The amount of strain in a metal is simply one parameter in the ability of flexed metal to spring back to its unflexed state. There are many other parameters that are directly associated and paramount to the final result, such as the type of metal used, its actual metal composition, its forging and annealing process, the geometry of the nib, including the curvature in the tines of some nibs so those nibs can act more like a spring, the springiness of that metal alloy, its degree of elasticity, etc. All of these parameters combined is what produces what is call the "responsiveness" or "snap-back" of a nib.

 

For more on this subject please refer to the Performance Flex article I wrote a while back​

 

For example, in the firm steel nib you modified, that steel material should have less springiness, elasticity and ability to retrieve its tines as fast as a 14k vintage flex nib that was originally designed and manufactured for those very specific purposes. While the outer geometry of your modified nib may look similar, that does not imply everything else will behave like a true vintage flex nib.

 

 

The modified nibs that I've shown all flex and return properly.

 

Alan

​

What you grade and consider as "return properly" is perhaps a very small fraction of the degree of springiness, elasticity and responsiveness found in some of the most desirable and sought out vintage flex nibs. If a distresses rigid steel nib with some cutouts were the solution vintage pen manufacturers would not have used gold or invest in up to 80 manual operations to manufacture a high quality flex nib 100 years ago. And remember, this was the golden era of flexible writing when most people wrote with their pens everyday, when flex writing was the normal style of writing for many people, and when taking into consideration many of those vintage flex nibs have survived and perform just as good now as they did 100 years ago. There is a reason those nib manufacturers invested all this effort in the manufacture of those high quality nibs. Simply distressing a rigid steel nib will not replace all the very desired attributes found in a true flexible nib should have.

[Pterodactylus]

 

(Serwex MB flex EMF ..... ESS Registrars Blue-Black)

 

Very wet lines are not in all cases unavoidable when flexing nibs

With my EMF mod I have more troubles to make the feed keep up during longer writing sessions but not with the wetness of the lines.

Both, modified FPR flex nibs and modified Noodlers flex nibs give excellent results regarding flex perfomance (not worse than many vintage nibs at a fraction of the cost).

No troubles with snap back and responsiveness of the nib,

I also don´t think that the nibs will have troubles with material fatique some time (i still use mine quite a long time heavily, I also love this Serwex to draw with).

For me the more difficult thing is to make the feed keep up in all situations (not when writing a line or 2 but when writing a page and continuously flexing the nib at normal writing speed) .

 

I also don´t think that steel is per se less suitable for flex nibs than gold.

There were excellent steel flex nibs in the past, not worse than gold nibs.

Edited November 20, 2015 by Pterodactylus

[Precise]

 

(Serwex MB flex EMF ..... ESS Registrars Blue-Black)

 

Very wet lines are not in all cases unavoidable when flexing nibs

With my EMF mod I have more troubles to make the feed keep up during longer writing sessions but not with the wetness of the lines.

Both, modified FPR flex nibs and modified Noodlers flex nibs give excellent results regarding flex perfomance (not worse than many vintage nibs at a fraction of the cost).

No troubles with snap back and responsiveness of the nib,

I also don´t think that the nibs will have troubles with material fatique some time (i still use mine quite a long time heavily, I also love this Serwex to draw with).

For me the more difficult thing is to make the feed keep up in all situations (not when writing a line or 2 but when writing a page and continuously flexing the nib at normal writing speed) .

 

I also don´t think that steel is per se less suitable for flex nibs than gold.

There were excellent steel flex nibs in the past, not worse than gold nibs.

Beautiful penmanship indeed. What are EMF, ESS and FPR?

 

Making a sharply pointed nib draw a fat line without railroading and without excess wetness seems like quite a challenge -- after my own attempts and watching the linked videos.

 

Best,

 

Alan

[PabloAU]

Beautiful penmanship indeed. What are EMF, ESS and FPR?

 

EMF = "ease my flex", a method of grinding behind the shoulders of the nib to increase flexibility. There's a rather extensive thread somewhere with lots of descriptions of experiences, variants, and results.

ESS = Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies, makers of the iron gall ink pictured above.

FPR = Fountain Pen Revolution, a pen seller based in India that carries a range of flex pens and loose nibs.

[Pterodactylus]

Hi Alan,

 

you can find the EMF thread here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/240492-noodlers-ahab-ease-my-flex-mod/

[Precise]

Hi Alan,

 

you can find the EMF thread here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/240492-noodlers-ahab-ease-my-flex-mod/

 

 

Thank you. Note in #6 of this thread,

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/299679-flex-nibs-leave-very-wet-lines-when-spread/?p=3494945

 

(my) lateral central slot reduces the width of each tine root to about half. This is often done by notching the sides of the nib (as in EMF). But when that's done, the remaining tine roots are nearly parallel, so when they flex, there is not much spread. But with the lateral central slot the remaining tine roots are angled, so when flexed they spread much more

 

Regards,

Alan

[dgreenwood116]

Really cool! So which of the three designs do you like the best? Performance/ smoothness and all that?

[Precise]

Really cool! So which of the three designs do you like the best? Performance/ smoothness and all that?

At this time, the performance of the three is remarkably similar and all are somewhat short of my goals due to the excessive wetness of fat lines. But if I develop this further, one of the three might emerge as best.

[hari317]

excessive wetness can be tackled by use of a sheet of blotting paper. I think this was a SOP in the olden days.

[Goudy]

 

Tonight I discovered youtube as a way to observe flex pens and wet fat lines.

 

These are wetter than my modified pens in this thread:

 

 

 

These are dryer than my modified pens:

Waterman 52,

The pen appears to be quite vertical in some of these videos. Is that the preferred technique?

Best,

Alan

 

 

The first video shows a dip nib (the Blue Pumpkin), so there's no feed and the wetness depends on the ink and how much you load onto the nib.

 

In the other videos, with the vintage fountain pens, I believe he's holding the pen vertically so that the feed doesn't drag on the paper when he mashes the nib against the page. He's writing in "eBay seller mode", maximizing the flex to improve the perceived value. You can probably get away with that in a 5-minute video but you're heading for a sprung nib if you do that all the time.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Great Hari....

Yep, blotting paper and a roller....but I'm after the shading...in that destroys that. I don't even think blotter.

I am of course not after that wet a line....nor do I get it with my Wet Noodles, a Soennecken and a Waterman 52.

If I had a light enough hand...I could go xxf=BBB....I don't take it over BB....and my Hand's so heavy it writes like an F....sigh cubed.

 

I have the extra dry R&K and ESSr inks.... Like the shading.

[lysander]

At this time, the performance of the three is remarkably similar and all are somewhat short of my goals due to the excessive wetness of fat lines. But if I develop this further, one of the three might emerge as best.

 

Hi Precise, I realize I'm resurrecting an old thread, but would you mind sharing your milling and slitting setup for the nibs ? What kind of machine, vice, arbor and saw do you use ?

 

Many thanks !

[Honeybadgers]

I do this kind of cutting with a jigsaw and #5/0 blades (6/0 were just too fragile)

[sidthecat]

Two words: blotter paper. I keep a lurid purple plastic rocker blotter on my desk to sop up the excess ink. I’m left-handed, so the ink will end up on my hand if I don’t.

Blotters and blotter paper are available in the usual places for pen fanciers. Do look into it.

[Freddy]

Fred

Wanna go to the World's Fair in Queens......

Gotta go.......swim time.....Adios Folks.........