The Weekly Sketch ~ Themed Drawing Prompts For Members

[Pira]

I can't comment on something I have not read, but going off my own experience of commenting in threads and posts that have been hidden, the mods, I'm sure, had their reasons and are within the bounds of the site's guidlines that we all agree to when we sign up.

 

 

And that is exactly the point. I respect that this is merely a borrowed space and the PTB have the right to remove posts without explanation.

 

The image in question was removed (hidden, whatever). I simply asked a question because I missed the original post. It was removed. I protested the manner in which any discourse on the matter was being squashed by posting a drawing based on the weekly theme, but one that was a finger wag about the censorship. As did another artist. Nothing offensive unless one chose to take it in personally. A casual observer would not understand. ...and both were also 'hidden' ...at which point we chose to no longer participate in a forum where respect goes only one way & history is erased.

 

To be polite to the artists who are here, I posted (without throwing ANY ONE or PLACE under the bus) that I would be stepping back from FPN and no longer posting images or monthly lists here, and that if people still want to keep this thread going they should step up on the 1st of May with a new list.

 

...that was promptly removed.

 

That is all I have to say about this.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Pira

[haruka337]

 

 

And that is exactly the point. I respect that this is merely a borrowed space and the PTB have the right to remove posts without explanation.

 

The image in question was removed (hidden, whatever). I simply asked a question because I missed the original post. It was removed. I protested the manner in which any discourse on the matter was being squashed by posting a drawing based on the weekly theme, but one that was a finger wag about the censorship. As did another artist. Nothing offensive unless one chose to take it in personally. A casual observer would not understand. ...and both were also 'hidden' ...at which point we chose to no longer participate in a forum where history is erased.

 

To be polite to the artists who are here, I posted (without throwing ANY ONE OR PLACE UNDER THE BUS) that I would be stepping back from FPN and no longer posting images or monthly lists here, and that if people still want to keep this thread going they should step up on the 1st of May with a new list.

 

...that was duly removed.

 

That is all I have to say about this.

 

Again, I cannot comment on the other thread as I did not read it and what you're giving me is your interpretation on the matter, which is, understandably, subjective.

 

Casual observers of this thread are active participants of the forums as well and their sensibilities should be considered--the matter stretches beyond the three main participants of this thread. What you see as a non-offensive finger wag, someone else would see it otherwise. The mods do not have an easy job here as there are degrees inbetween to consider as well.

 

We all have choices here, as you emphasized in your last post. A choice to post something that one knows may be hidden. A choice to report a post one sees as questionable. Either way, we all chose to agree to the guidelines that keep this going when we signed up, but anyone can decide to change their mind and move on.

[Pterodactylus]

There were never an explanation or discussions about "Questionable" posts.

The posts just disappeared almost as quickly as we created them.

Not a single trace left, this is not what I consider as moderation.

There is a big difference between a Moderator and a Censor.

 

For example which guideline of the site do I violate if I just state that I will not post new pictures anymore because of the recent censoring (which deserves an immediate deletion/hiding/removing... Whatever)?

[fountainpagan]

Wouldn't it be possible for both parties to loosen some of their rope, and get to a point of agreement?

 

Wouldn't it be possible for the moderation/admin team to make a step backwards? Wouldn't it be possible for the artists to do the same, also?

 

Can't you, moderators/admin/artists, seat and collegially discuss, and deliberate on the subject?

 

Are all doors closed, really?

 

"Everybody is right, from their own point of view. But is not impossible that they may all be wrong" - Gandhi

[Darkbulb]

I'm just waiting for the fulfillment of Godwin's law

[Tas]

This community is one of the nicest places, virtual or otherwise, to hang around so these rows make me quite anxious.

 

I'm aware certain things may offend certain people so I asked a question in the Community Feedback forum.

I can't recall my exact words as it too was removed without explanation or discussion, but it was along the lines of "why was a sketch of an "umbrella" (I won't use the word) removed and yet a photo of a rattlesnake being beheaded allowed ?

 

It wasn't a criticism. I was genuinely trying to find out why. I took no offence to the "umbrella" but can now not un-see a snake with a knife to it's throat.

 

My post was removed. No explanation.

 

It's a little like snatching a child's toy away and answering "because" when asked why.

Moderators, please, please help us.

[Pterodactylus]

And I still don't know which moderator removed all these posts.

It's easy just to delete things which are uncomfortable without a trace.

 

But he or she seem not to have the guts to post something like: I removed this post because it violated this Rule, and that post because of that reason.

And by the way I deleted Tas question because I did not liked these kind of questions at all.

 

Instead he or she is hiding in anonymity avoiding any open discussion.

[haruka337]

There were never an explanation or discussions about "Questionable" posts.

The posts just disappeared almost as quickly as we created them.

Not a single trace left, this is not what I consider as moderation.

There is a big difference between a Moderator and a Censor.

 

For example which guideline of the site do I violate if I just state that I will not post new pictures anymore because of the recent censoring (which deserves an immediate deletion/hiding/removing... Whatever)?

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the situation, the guidelines are not open to member interpretation. Instead, I imagine the moderators hid the thread in question (a thread I did not read and have only second hand accounts to go by) because it may have been considered inflammatory, but that's conjecture on my part. All I'm certain of is that the mods had their reasons and the right to do so.

 

What you consider as moderating or censorship is entirely subjective. The matter involves more than the participants of this thread as the moderators typically do not act unless some thing is flagged by members.

 

That aside, honestly, why announce that you will not post pictures here any longer? What's the purpose in that? What are you looking to gain from that?

 

And I still don't know which moderator removed all these posts.

It's easy just to delete things which are uncomfortable without a trace.

 

But he or she seem not to have the guts to post something like: I removed this post because it violated this Rule, and that post because of that reason.

And by the way I deleted Tas question because I did not liked these kind of questions at all.

 

Instead he or she is hiding in anonymity avoiding any open discussion.

It's easy to assume the worst, which I believe is what is happening here.

 

Nothing has been permanently deleted other than what a few members here have deleted themselves--the items under discussion has been hidden until a resolution can be made.

 

What's the point of demeaning the moderators if they are acting on what has been reported? By the guidelines noted on the site, they must address everything flagged. That has always been the process, it is no secret and is posted on the site. It's not a matter of "guts" it's a matter of handing the situation as balanced and as fair as they can, which will not make everyone happy, but it's impossible to appeal to every sensibility.

 

As a matter of course, moderators do not name those who flag or report posts to them--I understand why. No one should be open to attacked for any measure of whistle-blowing. However, the mods have no anonymity here. Once they are ready to address the issue here in the thread, as is typical of what they do, you'll get your response. Though, you can do what I have done, what many have done in the past, message the mods directly.

[Darkbulb]

 

That aside, honestly, why announce that you will not post pictures here any longer? What's the purpose in that? What are you looking to gain from that?

 

I actually rather appreciated that he posted that. I like seeing his drawings and if he now posts them somewhere else I like to know that.

[haruka337]

I actually rather appreciated that he posted that. I like seeing his drawings and if he now posts them somewhere else I like to know that.

Perhaps, but in the past, those that announce their posting somewhere devolves into their deriding and demanding a mass exodus from this site, which is always tiring to see. Whats more, their announcement could just be posted here. Though, admittedly, I'll never know the honest purpose of these members stating they will post somewhere else--I can only take what they say at face value, from what they've posted thus far on the matter and past trends of noting such things. :c\

 

I'm just a little weary.

 

I'm just waiting for the fulfillment of Godwin's law

I'm waitin' for it, too.

[haruka337]

Wouldn't it be possible for both parties to loosen some of their rope, and get to a point of agreement?

 

Wouldn't it be possible for the moderation/admin team to make a step backwards? Wouldn't it be possible for the artists to do the same, also?

 

Can't you, moderators/admin/artists, seat and collegially discuss, and deliberate on the subject?

 

Are all doors closed, really?

 

"Everybody is right, from their own point of view. But is not impossible that they may all be wrong" - Gandhi

True dat.

 

I hope all connected in the matter can come to a reasonable agreement.

[Pterodactylus]

Haruka, I do not agree with you, but this is ok.

 

In such a case, when all comments and posts are deleted iron fisted without a comment from the site from an anonymous "Moderator" (let's call him/she at least a moderator even this has nothing to do with moderation), than you can't do anything more than stating your protest against such arbitrary censorship by claiming not to post any new pictures anymore or even not to use the complete site.

It's the only type of (little) protest left for a normal member (as I can´t ban the anonymous guy with moderation access or undo what he/she did)

[haruka337]

Haruka, I do not agree with you, but this is ok.

 

In such a case, when all comments and posts are deleted iron fisted without a comment from the site from an anonymous "Moderator" (let's call him/she at least a moderator even this has nothing to do with moderation), than you can't do anything more than stating your protest against such arbitrary censorship by claiming not to post any new pictures anymore or even not to use the complete site.

It's the only type of (little) protest left for a normal member (as I can´t ban the anonymous guy with moderation access or undo what he/she did)

Our disagreement is rather apparent, but discourse can be a good thing. I always appreciate it when more than one view point is expressed.

 

Calling the way in which the moderators are handling the matter as "iron fisted" appears over dramatized. There has never been any secret as to how the moderators handle flagged, reported or questionable posts--it's posted in the guidelines and noted by another affected artist of this thread. It's no secret that they can hide threads as they see fit without explanation, however, you'll likely receive an explanation on this thread. Whether or not it satisfies your time-line is beyond me.

 

Also, let us not side step the high possibility that other members flagged the image or thread as, again, the mods typically do not discuss a matter unless it's flagged or reported. It's easier to vilify and attack the mods in this matter, so I can only imagine what would happen if they announced who reported the it. The moderators cannot only appeal to those affected in this thread, but must also consider the others who view it and those that may have flagged it. It's not about right or wrong, censorship or consideration, but finding a reasonable, fair (enough) middle ground in their conclusion.

 

This forum has not changed since you joined. The guidelines you agreed too when you joined haven't changed much either (posted and accessible to all). The moderators and how they handle issues remains the same. There is no surprise here.

[migo984]

 

Ah - dogmatism rules again.

 

I disagree that 'rules are rules'. That maxim has proved false throughout history & is used by weak leaders & their acolytes. Sometimes things need to be challenged & protested, to bring about needed change. Let's not pretend that moderators don't get things wrong - that is a patent fallacy. There is individual & personal interpretation & decision-making at play every time a post is "hidden" (let's use that term euphemistically). So mistakes can be, and are, made.

 

There is nothing wrong, anywhere, with asking questions about, or politely challenging, those seemingly arbitrary decisions. If the decision is a correct one it can be easily justified. What is wrong is to treat adults like recalcitrant children & refuse to even engage on the matter; then moderation becomes censorship. And even worse, to throw up our hands & declare the unlikelihood to effect change as an excuse not to try.

 

This isn't the first time thoughtful & principled contributors have left a thread / the forum, and it won't be the last. Nor is it the last time that the forum's style of 'moderation' is dogmatically defended. In both cases FPN is poorer because of it.

 

I fully expect this post to be deleted.

[haruka337]

Ah - dogmatism rules again.

 

I disagree that 'rules are rules'. That maxim has proved false throughout history & is used by weak leaders & their acolytes. Sometimes things need to be challenged & protested, to bring about needed change. Let's not pretend that moderators don't get things wrong - that is a patent fallacy. There is individual & personal interpretation & decision-making at play every time a post is "hidden" (let's use that term euphemistically). So mistakes can be, and are, made.

 

There is nothing wrong, anywhere, with asking questions about, or politely challenging, those seemingly arbitrary decisions. If the decision is a correct one it can be easily justified. What is wrong is to treat adults like recalcitrant children & refuse to even engage on the matter; then moderation becomes censorship. And even worse, to throw up our hands & declare the unlikelihood to effect change as an excuse not to try.

 

This isn't the first time thoughtful & principled contributors have left a thread / the forum, and it won't be the last. Nor is it the last time that the forum's style of 'moderation' is dogmatically defended. In both cases FPN is poorer because of it.

 

I fully expect this post to be deleted.

Unless you're looking to move one step closer to Godwin's law, we're not discussing history here. No one is claiming that the moderators are infallible and let us not pretend that the moderators have not tried to work with members to resolve issues. Some are satisfied with their resolutions, some are not (I've been on both ends of that spectrum)--human nature, can't please everyone. If the 3 main participants of the thread have chosen to be preemptive and immediately move on to post somewhere else without contacting the mods directly to discuss the matter, that is their prerogative. They have a choice to move away from the guidelines they agreed to when joining the site. In this instance, that's being an adult, to have a choice to move away from something one does not approve of. There are no "children" here.

 

There is nothing wrong with asking questions, but how it was asked in the other thread, I do not know. As noted earlier, I can only go off of second-hand, subjective accounts.

 

There is no such thing as a "correct" decision, for not everyone will be appeased, no matter what the outcome. Even the best resolution will not satisfy one who has already decided the matter at hand--I believe this is the current situation in this thread, regarding the affected members.

 

You're right, this is not the first time I've seen members leave here, but I'm never sad to see them go when they begin to bash moderators or belittle other members simply because they were not acquiesced to.

 

Who said no change could occur? All I read was "censorship", "where does it say that in the rules!?!" and "I'm going to post somewhere else!". I did not read anything about contacting the mods for a meaningful discussion. The mods posted that the image in question was under review and members know that they can contact mods at will. For some, a decision on this thread is not coming fast enough, but I'd rather the moderators not be hasty in a matter that will affect members beyond this thread.

 

 

[Pterodactylus]

Thanks Migo, you are absolutely right.

 

 

Haruka, it seem to make no sense to discuss this issue further with you.

 

Lets talk Tacheles, I asked immediately after my post was deleted here why somebody deleted my post. The reaction was that my post was also immediately deleted.

I also complained to Wim immediately without success.

 

It's useless to try to discuss something with someone which hides in anonymity deleting any follow up posts again and again without a comment.

Or do you know the name of the unknown censor?

 

Please state clearly which FPN rule the initial sketch of a Condom violated?

I don´t know!

I can see only a completely harmless post of a commodity item, which fited to the topic as it is called here sometimes "umbrella for the little friend".

 

Please state clearly which FPN rules all the follow up posts violated?

Please state clearly which FPN rule Tas question thread violated?

 

There will always people which will complain, there are enough prude people or people with a moslemic fundamentalist background around which live with a medieval mindset.

But I never will limit my scope to what such people think it is appropriate or not.

 

I always liked FPN as a great place to spend time, and thought it is a free modern western place in the 21. century.

But I really hate what happened, this makes me really angry.

 

And just to make my expectation clear, I expect that all deleted content will become visible again.

I expect also that Wim confirms that such arbitrary deletions will not happen again.

Everything else will not be sufficient.

[haruka337]

I expected as much--you need not discuss the matter with me if you're unsatisfied with my response.

 

Pontificate as you will. Demand capitulation. Belittle those who dissent. Ignore the guidelines you agreed to when you signed up. Disregard other members. However, what's the point if you already stated you'll not post images here anymore?

 

You're right, it just makes no sense to discuss this with me.

[Pterodactylus]

I expected as much--you need not discuss the matter with me if you're unsatisfied with my response.

Pontificate as you will. Demand capitulation. Belittle those who dissent. Ignore the guidelines you agreed to when you signed up. Disregard other members. However, what's the point if you already stated you'll not post images here anymore?

You're right, it just makes no sense to discuss this with me.

Please state the specific guideline or FPN rule which was violated by me or others explicitely and explain what in our posts or pictures exactly violated them.

I can't see any relation between FPN rules I know and what happened.

[fountainpagan]

:( :( :( :(

[haruka337]

Please state the specific guideline or FPN rule which was violated by me or others explicitely and explain what in our posts or pictures exactly violated them.

I can't see any relation between FPN rules I know and what happened.

Is this a rhetorical question? I ask only (in all seriousness) since it makes "...no sense to discuss this issue further..." with me. What's more, I already touched on what you asked. Though, it's up to you to read my posts in passing, in part or in full.