One Vacumatic Less Usual

[Lazard 20]

Lazard -

 

See this post for some unanswered questions about your claims. If you've decided you're not going to back up your statements by addressing these questions, just say that and I won't pursue it further.

 

Thanks.

--Daniel

 

You are very repetitive but although this is very basic things that you could answer yourself I´m going to give you satisfaction in my next post.

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

 

Well, I have the 1937 catalog and it doesn't say anything about a lifetime guarantee. But you said, "Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937," so you must have Parker documentation from 1937 stating this. Please post this 1937 documentation. Thanks.

 

Answer. Words, words, but about present examples contrary to the theory, nothing.

 

Yes, there are Parker evidences from 1937 Parker pens and from Parker relationship. Let you see. You can see 1937 pens extended type at 8.75$ and up, Right?

 

http://s23.postimg.org/xk19hcnx7/1937_2_T_ver_zona_engraving_Dos_digitos_m_s_punt.jpg

 

http://s27.postimg.org/4nd495ggz/1937_4_USA_NO_centrado_banda_abierta.jpg

 

As you can see that all Senior Maxima, Maxima and Major extended type -with chevron band by the way- are Blue Diamond pens as you can see here in Parker´s docs.

 

http://s1.postimg.org/5kayl7em7/1948.jpg

 

It is confirmed by pens and docs that 1937 fountain pens extended type and chevron band are Blue Diamond pens.

 

It also confirms the theory because all Major catalogued have chevron band and all Major are Blue Diamond Pens (there aren´t Major in Non-Blue Diamond group).

 

Which models specifically are you comparing from the 1938 catalog?

 

A Senior Maxima, Maxima and Major at $10 and $8.75. Lifetime guaranted, with chevron band in page 6. in contrast with

 

B Standard and Slender at 7.50. Non Lifetime guaranteed, with cap rings band (in contrast with chevron cap band) below in the same page, both of them confirm my theory:

 

Chevron cap band implies Lifetime Guarantee

Rings cap implies Non-Lifetime Guarantee

 

 

I conclude literature here and hereafter considering thay you are overly repetitive or with marginal issues, I only will accept questions about your concrete examples, so I look forward to your, countless?, examples of pens that contradict the theory. If you forget them, no problem, within a couple of days I'll ask you for them.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Brian-McQueen]

I still would like answers to my questions please, Lazard. I think I have "earned" at least that much.

[Lazard 20]

I still would like answers to my questions please, Lazard. I think I have "earned" at least that much.

 

Sorry, I´ve concluded literature here and hereafter since the matter is fully explained for my part, so I only accept questions about concrete examples.

[kirchh]

 

You are very repetitive but although this is very basic things that you could answer yourself I´m going to give you satisfaction in my next post.

 

Thank you. Note that I'm not at all repetitive. I am merely ensuring that you have seen my questions, because you haven't even acknowledged them, much less answered them directly.

 

I cannot answer my questions myself, because my questions are about the evidence that you have to support your claims. Only you can answer those questions.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

 

 

Well, I have the 1937 catalog and it doesn't say anything about a lifetime guarantee. But you said, "Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937," so you must have Parker documentation from 1937 stating this. Please post this 1937 documentation. Thanks.

 

Answer. Words, words, but about present examples contrary to the theory, nothing.

 

Yes, there are Parker evidences from 1937 Parker pens and from Parker relationship. Let you see. You can see 1937 pens extended type at 8.75$ and up, Right?

 

http://s23.postimg.org/xk19hcnx7/1937_2_T_ver_zona_engraving_Dos_digitos_m_s_punt.jpg

 

http://s27.postimg.org/4nd495ggz/1937_4_USA_NO_centrado_banda_abierta.jpg

 

As you can see that all Senior Maxima, Maxima and Major extended type -with chevron band by the way- are Blue Diamond pens as you can see here in Parker´s docs.

 

http://s1.postimg.org/5kayl7em7/1948.jpg

 

It is confirmed by pens and docs that 1937 fountain pens extended type and chevron band are Blue Diamond pens.

 

 

 

You misunderstood the question.

 

You said, "Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937," so if your belief is based on direct evidence, you must have Parker documentation from 1937 stating this. Please post this 1937 documentation.

 

If you have no 1937 documentation stating that the were Vacumatics guaranteed for life at that time, simply state that you do not have any 1937 documentation that contains this statement. That would mean that you have no contemporaneous evidence for your claim that Parker Vacumatics priced at $8.75 and up were lifetime guaranteed in 1937. Therefore, your belief would be based on nothing more than that the fact that you prefer to place it in 1937 because you feel that it was there.

 

Let's at least be clear about that; then we can close that issue.

 

 

 

Which models specifically are you comparing from the 1938 catalog?

 

A Senior Maxima, Maxima and Major at $10 and $8.75. Lifetime guaranted, with chevron band in page 6. in contrast with

 

B Standard and Slender at 7.50. Non Lifetime guaranteed, with cap rings band (in contrast with chevron cap band) below in the same page, both of them confirm my theory:

 

Chevron cap band implies Lifetime Guarantee

Rings cap implies Non-Lifetime Guarantee

 

 

I conclude literature here and hereafter considering thay you are overly repetitive or with marginal issues, I only will accept questions about your concrete examples, so I look forward to your, countless?, examples of pens that contradict the theory. If you forget them, no problem, within a couple of days I'll ask you for them.

 

Thanks! But you missed a question.

 

You said,

 

What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

 

I asked you which models you were comparing from the 1937 catalog, but you missed that question.

 

So, which models are you comparing from the 1937 catalog? I'm looking forward to your answer.

 

Now, when it comes to the 1938 catalog models, I asked for specific pairs of models that you claim are the same except for the cap band. You didn't give specifics; you only gave lists of some pens that had guarantees and that didn't have guarantees. Furthermore, the Major at $8.75 was a pen with the new streamlined styling, so it is normal that it would cost more than the old, squared-off Standard (though I wouldn't say it was significantly more expensive; just a little more).

 

Oh, here's another question you forgot to answer; you said,

 

If Parker not recognized the Lifetime of non-Lifetime pens trought the cap band, how you do think they recognize this?

 

Why did prices significantly different in similar pens except band or rings?

 

But you didn't give concrete examples of models that could only be distinguished from other models by their cap bands.

 

Which pairs of cataloged Vacumatic models specifically are identical except for the cap band and price in 1937? Put another way, which pairs of models from 1937 cannot be told apart unless one looks at the cap bands?

 

I have the same question about the cataloged 1938 models.

 

So just to be sure we get all the questions addressed:

 

1) You said, "Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937," so if your belief is based on direct evidence, you must have Parker documentation from 1937 stating this. Please post this 1937 documentation.

 

2) When you say, "what attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?," which specific pairs of models are you comparing from the 1937 catalog?

 

3) Which pairs of cataloged Vacumatic models specifically are identical except for the cap band and price in 1937? Put another way, which pairs of models from 1937 cannot be told apart unless one looks at the cap bands?

 

4) Which pairs of cataloged Vacumatic models specifically are identical except for the cap band and price in 1938? Put another way, which pairs of models from 1938 cannot be told apart unless one looks at the cap bands?

 

Thank you very much for your time.

 

Best regards --

--Daniel

[GG917]

Lazard,

 

You theory seems reasonable but you've failed so far to answer about one of its shortcoming: 1937.

 

The blue diamond was the distinction of guaranteed for life pens, akin of Sheaffer's white dot. Your claim is that before the introduction of the BD, the cap band was used by Parker to distinguish non-guaranteed pens (rings cap band) and guaranteed pens (chevron band).

 

You've shown the page in 1938 catalog where this distinction is clearly established. In that catalog you can also find the Junior Debutante model: 5.00$ pen with a cap band closer to the chevron's one than rings. How does this pen fit in your theory? Later it is not a BD pen.

 

You've deduced using the 1948 pen parts list that chevron bands pen were guaranteed for life because in 1948 they are described as "BD pens". It only shows that retroactively Parker considered chevron cap band pens equivalent to blue diamond pens, but that does not indicate that it was the case in 1937. In the 1937 catalog there is no mention of guarantee for chevron cap bands.

 

In order to prove your theory you must show a 1937 document where it is clearly stated that chevron cap band pen were guaranteed for life, ring cap band were not. Otherwise your theory will only be some speculations. So do you have this 1937 Parker document that prove your theory?

[Brian-McQueen]

GG917, thank you for that. I have no clue how I could have forgotten the Junior Debutantes. There you go, Lazard. Many, many pens that go against your theory that you cannot deny. They are well catalogued.

[GG917]

You're welcome. I'm no Vacumatic expert but the Junior Debutante stand against Lazard's theory from what I can deduce. In addition to the lack of period correct document(s) for the 1937 pens. I'll be glad to hear what he has to say about it.

[kirchh]

To bring new readers up to speed, here's a quick summary of the current issues being discussed.

 

Lazard has stated that the "chevron" cap band always indicated a lifetime guarantee, and that Parker specifically used this band so that lifetime-guaranteed pens could be recognized. His position is that prior to the introduction of the Blue Diamond insignia in 1939, the presence of a chevron band was the only way to distinguish between certain pairs of models that were otherwise identical, and the pen with the chevron band was significantly more expensive and had a lifetime guarantee and the pen with two or three narrow plain bands cost less and did not have that guarantee. Lazard has stated that the lifetime guarantee was put in place in 1937, so pens from 1937 and 1938 that had a chevron cap band had lifetime guarantees, and that cap band was the sole indicator of that status.

 

Not only 1938; 1937 also have a guaranteed with chevron band.

 

chevron cap band = Lifetime guarantee and rings caps = Non-Lifetime guarantee.

...

 

You're still confused, I´ve established this relationship: ALL CHEVRON BANDS PENS ARE GUARANTEED LIFETIME

...

 

Parker Vacumatic with chevron band have Guarantee Lifetime since [the time the] Guarantee Lifetime appears [until the] Guarantee Lifetime disappears.

...

it is a distinctive attribute which Parker difference their guaranted pens separately of those others non-guaranteed

 

[in the 1938 catalog, the] same pens with chevron band is higher-priced than the same pen with 3 rings.

 

Here's a specific pair of models that Lazard incorrectly claims are identical except for the cap band configuration (he's mistaken; the Major, of course, has a different, upscale nib, compared to the Junior):

 

only way to differentiate chevron-guaranteed vs rings-non-guaranteed in many Major vs Junior

 

Lazard has stated that by "chevron band," he explicitly means to include both the bands seen on pens such as the Major, with forward/backward leaning lines, as well as the somewhat more complex design found on the single flat cap band of the Debutante:

 

Debutante have too "chevron" band, more little and some different but chevron....there are not 2 but 6 or 7 differents chevron cap band design in vacs and, by the way, all with Lifetime guaranteed, Debutante included.

 

The strict correlation between the chevron bands and the lifetime guarantee has been expressed repeatedly by Lazard:

 

How do Parker know which are guaranteed and which not in pens manufactured in 1938 ...? ¿You are sure that not by chevron cap band vs ring cap?

 

Maxima is guaranteed so have chevron and Junior non-guaranted, so have rings. You don´t force because everything fits perfectly.

 

 

Into 1938, !a excellent opportunity for present their Lifetime guarantee!, with Semi-Centennial Jubilee Catalog 5435 reliably dated in September ´38 we can see:

 

A/ Models $8.75 and up with chevron band and expressly Lifetime guaranted.

B/ Models $7.50 and less with rings and expressly non-guaranted Lifetime.

C/ Desk model with chevron band and expreslly Lifetime guaranted.

 

Lazard has stated that if there were a model of Vacumatic that had a chevron band but that did not have the guarantee, he would retract his claim:

 

If you want to demonstrate that the chevron band in ringed vacs does not implies Lifetime Guarantee, you only have send us images of 8/10 USA pens with chevron band non-guaranted.

 

By the way, among the abundant documentation that you and Brian say to have, do you have Parker docs that contradicts what I am saying? ...

 

I look forward to your, countless?, examples of pens that contradict the theory.

 

Lazard...

 

Do you have the 1938 catalog handy?

 

Check page 13.

 

Some other readers might not have a copy; here's a quick grab of page 13 (image from the PCA Library catalog scan):

 

http://icroscope.com/Parker_Junior_Debutante_1938_Catalog.jpg

 

This model has a chevron band, but it doesn't have a lifetime guarantee, and it's priced at $5.00 -- the exact same price as, for example, the little Juniorette, which also cost $5.00, has no lifetime guarantee...and which doesn't have a chevron band (h/t GG917).

 

[Note that on Lazard's unsupported claim that Parker offered a lifetime guarantee on some Vacumatics starting in 1937, he appears to have constructively retracted that assertion; he now admits that he merely "prefers" to place it in 1937 because he feels that it was there.]

 

Thank you for considering the exact evidence you requested, and that you stated would falsify your theory.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

(We're talking about models that Parker employees can be confused guaranteed vs non-guaranteed simply changing the cap and this model can not be confused by this simple change)

 

@kirchh

 

The exception that proves the rule? Please allow me a small smile , not even so.

 

Am I just feel that whenever Kirchh argues the theory is stronger?

 

First of all, One model! only one model... and preciselly out of our statistical range.

 

Secondly, !We´re talking about ringed vacumatic and your example it is not! Let´s see that I said:

 

In English:

 

Initially and visually:

 

I've only shown images of ringed vacs with ringed cap so is out other pens that are easily distinguished by color or other metal caps.

 

In the end, textually:

 

"I think just now my position about when Parker offer Guarantee Lifetime in ringed vac with chevron band..."

 

"... this last USA ringed vacumatic are only 2 rings versions"

 

“Brian, hundreds of thousands of ringed vacumatic between 1937 and...”

 

Too in the same sense In Spanish in a simultaneous thread about this matter:

 

“... en las estilográficas que estamos estudiando, las anilladas vacumatic, Parker...” that is to say:

"... In the fountain pen under consideration, the ringed Vacumatic, Parker ..."

 

Obviouysly your non-ringed sample is offside as well you can keep trying to confuse going away, once again, on a tangent.

 

Finally and at the inability to show examples against the theory and for bring new readers up to speed I wish to emphasize that on Kirchh unsupported claim that Parker don´t offered a lifetime guarantee on some Vacumatics starting in 1937 because he feels or want to think that it was there, regardless that means arguing senseless against many Parker docs as, i.e. :

 

- Against 1937 ads when everyone can see, visually and textually, speedline model. You can see this ads here.

- Against 1937 code dated fountain pen speedline shown here and in any collection. You can see bellow.

- Against 1937 Parker catalog where everyone can see that $8.75 and up model with letter N (new?), silhoutte speedline and chevron cap band, by the way; on contrary of cheapers models with rings cap and not guaranteed. See below.

-Against 1948 Parker BDPens vs Non-BDPens reationship where only have this speedline with chevron band $8.75 and up in BD group. See below.

 

This theory seems not to like to Kirchh or,perhaps more accurately, he don´t like it comes from me, but it seems that the theory, whatever the source, is stronger than Kirchh and him lack of consideration of Parker docs and evident Parker ringed fountain pens.

.

 

http://s23.postimg.org/xk19hcnx7/1937_2_T_ver_zona_engraving_Dos_digitos_m_s_punt.jpg

 

http://s2.postimg.org/9pm73cd95/image.jpg

 

http://s1.postimg.org/5kayl7em7/1948.jpg

Edited November 23, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

(We're talking about models that Parker employees can be confused guaranteed vs non-guaranteed simply changing the cap and this model can not be confused by this simple change)

 

@kirchh

 

The exception that proves the rule? Please allow me a small smile , not even so.

 

[etc., etc.]

 

Thank you for your reply, and for your quite gracious concessions.

 

It looks like this topic is finally wrapped up, as we all agree on the following (Brian -- feel free to concur or dissent):

 

- The presence of a chevron band does not indicate a lifetime guarantee on pre-Blue Diamond Vacumatics

 

- All pre-Blue Diamond lifetime-guaranteed Vacumatic models can be distinguished from non-guaranteed models without making reference to the cap band

 

- There is no documentation from 1937 stating that some Vacumatic pens have lifetime guarantees; your claim about this is based on preference and feeling

 

Enjoyable discussion. Thanks again.

 

--Daniel

[Brian-McQueen]

Lazard, your stubbornness is amazing, and your ability to change your stance on the subject is enviable.

Let me leave you with some words of wisdom: "It's OK to admit when you are wrong. It doesn't hurt as much as you think it will. Continuing to argue when you know you are wrong looks much worse than simply admitting that you are wrong."

 

Your original argument was this.

I summarize now. My hypothesis is that in 1938/39 pre Blue Diamond:

 

chevron cap band = Lifetime guarantee and rings caps = Non-Lifetime guarantee.

 

From which it follows that Parker used the Lifetime guarantee in vacumatics (with chevron cap bands) long before the Blue Diamond and distinguished this Lifetime guarantee with the chevron cap band.

Then, you expanded it to say this:

...You're still confused, I´ve established this relationship: ALL CHEVRON BANDS PENS ARE GUARANTEED LIFETIME...

Since that time, we have shown Canadian pens which go against your theory. You responded by saying Canadian pens don't count.

So, we showed two USA uncatalogued models which go against your theory. You responded by saying uncatalogued pens don't count.

So, we show you a catalogued, USA model, the Junior Debutante, that has a chevron band and is not Lifetime Guaranteed and goes against your theory. Now you say it doesn't count.

 

Your argument looks something like this now:

"All pens with chevron bands have a Lifetime Guarantee. Oh, except for Canadian pens. Those don't count. Oh, and except for the OverMax and the Sub-Maxima. Those don't count either. Oh, and except for Junior Debutantes. Those definitely don't count, even if they are in the same document I'm using to try and prove my own theory. So, uh, I guess what I'm trying to say is that the models with Lifetime Guarantees have Lifetime Guarantees."

 

I hope that anyone with common sense that is reading this thread can come to the right conclusion. The 1938 Lifetime Guarantee that is shown in the 1938 Parker Catalogue and pre-dates the Blue Diamond is an interesting thing to research. But let me assure you that it has nothing to do with the chevron design on the bands.

 

I concur with Daniel on his conclusions and agree that this discussion is over.

Edited November 23, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[kirchh]

Finally and at the inability to show examples against the theory and for bring new readers up to speed I wish to emphasize that on Kirchh unsupported claim that Parker don´t offered a lifetime guarantee on some Vacumatics starting in 1937 because he feels or want to think that it was there, regardless that means arguing senseless against many Parker docs...

 

A note to readers who have not assiduously followed the whole thread: Here, Lazard falsifies my position. I never made the claim he attributes to me (it will be noted that he does not, and cannot, provide any such citation or quote of mine).

 

Lazard, however, has admitted that his assertion that Parker offered a lifetime guarantee on some Vacumatics in 1937 is based on his preference and feeling, as he does not dispute.

 

--Daniel