One Vacumatic Less Usual

[Brian-McQueen]

Also, if "Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime" how do we explain any of the pens in the Imperial family? Or ones with Jeweler's Bands? Or Stacked Coin Bands?

Edited November 13, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[FarmBoy]

Also, if "Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime" how do we explain any of the pens in the Imperial family? Or ones with Jeweler's Bands? Or Stacked Coin Bands?

I see we are both waiting for that article. I am suspicious that there is a catalog or a pieced together catalog that we do not have access to that when disclosed in the article that surely is in preparation, will leave us enlightened.

[Lazard 20]

 

Yes, let's go by what Parker says.

 

Parker says: "Major and Maxima Vacumatic pens priced at $8.75 and $10.00 are Guaranteed for Life"

 

 

 

Parker says: "GUARANTEED FOR LIFE BY THE BLUE DIAMOND"

 

 

 

Now let's look at what Parker does NOT say. Parker does NOT say "Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime" as you claim.

 

The pens are guaranteed for life because of their model and price. The cap band does not signify a guarantee. The pens which are guaranteed for life have a chevron band by coincidence.

 

Sorry I considered all those designs (except the Debutante) to be the same one. They're just different evolutions of the same design.

 

The image is part of the message communicated and you have removed the first image where we can see pens Lifetime guaranted with chevron band and non-guaranteed with rings.

 

So i.e. the second image not say "where is" the BD but we haven´t doubt that is in the clip because "we see" the message so Parker says visually that Major and Maxima with chevron band have guarantee and others with rings don´t have guarantee.

 

About your consideration of differents thing evolved one of another, as equals I would not say a monkey and a man are equals as much as the second is an evolution of the first one.

 

I have one question I'd like you to address specifically.

 

Parker introduced the Major, Slender Maxima, and Maxima in 1937. These pens have a chevron band. You said your theory is this:

 

If your theory is correct, why did Parker release the chevron band before starting a Lifetime Guarantee?

 

You're confused so I assume you want say "before starting BD", since chevron band starting just when Lifetime guarantee appears, not before... and starting at this precise moment because implies the same Lifetime guarantee, both are inseparable.

 

 

Also, if "Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime" how do we explain any of the pens in the Imperial family? Or ones with Jeweler's Bands? Or Stacked Coin Bands?

 

Although others bands aren´t involved in this thread, you could have answered yourself due to the fact that all, the totality, of pens with jewelers or stacked coin bands that you have presented here are after BD so, as you know, if have BD=have guarantee and if don´t have BD=don´t have guarantee. Elementary. You could have answered yourself.

 

You're still confused, I´ve established this relationship: ALL CHEVRON BANDS PENS ARE GUARANTEED LIFETIME but I have not said ALL GUARANTEED LIFETIME PENS HAVE CHEVRON BAND, this last sentence is not the same as first one.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

If the chevron band was meant to represent the lifetime warranty, why did they choose a different design for the Debutante, which also has a lifetime warranty? Why not use the same design, only smaller? I think it's just design choice.

 

Neither you understand this point. I don´t say that chevron band REPRESENT strictly Lifetime guarantee but that it is a distinctive attribute which Parker difference their guaranted pens separately of those others non-guarnteed and distinguished by rings.

 

Finally, I think you don´t need to ask questions that answer themselves and I will not be here a lot longer to answer all your occurrences. It is much easier:

 

If you want to demonstrate that the chevron band in ringed vacs does not implies Lifetime Guarantee, you only have send us images of 8/10 USA pens with chevron band non-guaranted.

 

You got it easy, do not write, If you found these pens upload here photos of them.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Lazard 20

[FarmBoy]

Lazzard,

 

What are the source documents from Parker that you have provided images from? I briefly looked through my materials and did not see the exact images you have presented all in the same document. I admit to my having no organization to the paper I have and not looking very hard at what I did have close at hand.

 

Farmboy

[Lazard 20]

Lazard,

 

What are the source documents from Parker that you have provided images from? I briefly looked through my materials and did not see the exact images you have presented all in the same document. I admit to my having no organization to the paper I have and not looking very hard at what I did have close at hand.

 

 

The key question is:

 

Parker needed to go provisioning gradually, not abruptly, to their dealers pens guaranteed because if they do it abruptly dealers could not sell their non-guaranteed stocks. But Parker needed to distinguish these pens prior guaranteed to official release of the guarantee finally with BD of others non-guaranted. How did they do it? Elemental, providing them with chevron band and leaving the rings for non-guaranted. Ingenious, right?

 

 

There are countless evidence that implies:

 

Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime

and

Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937, two years before Blue Diamond.

 

Another thing is that no one has put it together untill now, but let see:

 

BY PARKER´S 1948 RELATIONSHIP

 

These pen are Blue Diamond (have Lifetime Guarantee)

 

Speedline Senior Maxima ("Maxima") $10.- first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

Speedline Maxima ("Slender Maxima") $10.- first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

Speedlime Major ("Major") $8.75 first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

 

These pen are non Blue Diamond (don´t have Lifetime Guarantee)

 

Standard $7.50 this one have rings

Juniorette $5.00 this one have rings.

 

 

BY ADS.

 

-Untill August 1937. We see 3 models all non-guaranted and all with rings caps:

Oversize $10,- with rings

Standard $7.50, with rings, and

Junior $5,- with rings.

 

-From August 1937. Parker extends the range so as to we can see or infer now 5 models. 3 at $8.75 and up all with chevron band and 2 at $7.50 and less both with rings.

Speedline Senior Maxima ("Maxima") $10.- first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

Speedline Maxima ("Slender Maxima") $10.- first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

Speedlime Major ("Major") $8.75 first VAC band and from 1937 4Q with chevron band

Standard $7.50 this one continues with rings

Juniorette $5.00 this one continues with rings.

 

-After Blue Diamond appears in 1939:

 

All vacs pens with chevron bands have Lifetime guarantee.

All vacs pens with rings don´t have Lifetime guarantee.

 

BY CATALOGS.

 

Into 1938, !a excellent opportunity for present their Lifetime guarantee!, with Semi-Centennial Jubilee Catalog 5435 reliably dated in September ´38 we can see:

 

A/ Models $8.75 and up with chevron band and expressly Lifetime guaranted.

B/ Models $7.50 and less with rings and expressly non-guaranted Lifetime.

C/ Desk model with chevron band and expreslly Lifetime guaranted.

 

Into 1939 when BD appears and further vacs catalogs

 

All vacs pens with chevron bands have Lifetime guarantee.

All vacs pens with rings don´t have Lifetime guarantee.

Edited November 15, 2015 by Lazard 20

[FarmBoy]

Lazzard,

 

What are the source documents from Parker that you have provided images from? I briefly looked through my materials and did not see the exact images you have presented all in the same document. I admit to my having no organization to the paper I have and not looking very hard at what I did have close at hand.

 

Farmboy

[Lazard 20]

 

Lazard,

 

What are the source documents from Parker that you have provided images from? I briefly looked through my materials and did not see the exact images you have presented all in the same document. I admit to my having no organization to the paper I have and not looking very hard at what I did have close at hand.

 

Farmboy

 

 

 

I've already answered you, I'll do it again:

 

Parker 1938 catalog with 38 color pages !a excellent opportunity for present their Lifetime guarantee!, with Semi-Centennial Jubilee Catalog nº 5435 reliably dated in September ´38.

[Brian-McQueen]

You're confused so I assume you want say "before starting BD", since chevron band starting just when Lifetime guarantee appears, not before... and starting at this precise moment because implies the same Lifetime guarantee, both are inseparable.

 

We have 1937 pens with a chevron band. We do not have a publication from 1937 that says "Lifetime Guarantee." Therefore, your assumption is wrong. I meant what I said. The chevron band started BEFORE the Lifetime Guarantee appears.

[Brian-McQueen]

You're still confused, I´ve established this relationship: ALL CHEVRON BANDS PENS ARE GUARANTEED LIFETIME but I have not said ALL GUARANTEED LIFETIME PENS HAVE CHEVRON BAND, this last sentence is not the same as first one.

 

You're right. I was confused. I thought you were trying to establish the relationship "All guaranteed lifetime pens have chevron bands." Must have been a translation issue.

[Brian-McQueen]

Neither you understand this point. I don´t say that chevron band REPRESENT strictly Lifetime guarantee but that it is a distinctive attribute which Parker difference their guaranted pens separately of those others non-guarnteed and distinguished by rings.

 

Finally, I think you don´t need to ask questions that answer themselves and I will not be here a lot longer to answer all your occurrences. It is much easier:

 

If you want to demonstrate that the chevron band in ringed vacs does not implies Lifetime Guarantee, you only have send us images of 8/10 USA pens with chevron band non-guaranted.

 

You got it easy, do not write, If you found these pens upload here photos of them.

 

Here are two pens, both made in 1940 (after the BD was introduced), which have a Chevron Band and do NOT have a BD clip. I think you will recognize that these two models have their original clips. Did these pens have a Lifetime Guarantee?

 

First, an OverMax. The pen on the far right has the shape of an Oversize but the cap-band of the Maxima. Is this pen lifetime guaranteed?

 

Second, a pen that some call the "Sub-Maxima" or "Mini-Maxima." It is the black pen in this picture. It is the size of a 2G Junior but with a Major nib and Maxima size band. This is a known model. Was it Lifetime Guaranteed?

[Lazard 20]

Brian, please, incorporates only MADE IN USA, specify code date and only with chevron band in this ocasion. We understand better. I hope

[Lazard 20]

I'm thinking you could to have the photos but not the pens so you couldn´t know the code date even if they were MADE IN CANADA. Even so, with the appropriate caveats, I will answer.

 

Top left. No problem. (Pre-speedline=Non guaranted + 3rings=Non guaranteed) = Non guaranteed.

 

Top center. No problem. (BD=guaranteed + chevron band=guaranteed) = Guaranteed.

 

Top right. "Very, very difficult to find" according to your own words, click here, so you should not argue this pen in a general case. Even so this "rare case" nor cause problem and have explication: Chevron band appears in the upper range of $8.75 Lifetime guarantee however this barrel is lockdown so non guaranteed therefore this is a "incoherent" use of materials regardless how collector call them and regardless was manufactured or replacement. Country of manufacturing and barrel code date could help. in any case a particular "Very, very difficult to find" can not be estimated in a general cause.

 

Below black pen. If this pen was USA manufactured, and only if, I would say that could to be guaranteed by Parker as well, being not catalogued nor advertised, in the same way that we could not confirm that it is guaranteed, nor could confirm that is non-guaranteed.

 

We see that you don´t present Parker´s doc and are forced to find rare samples for to demonstrate nothing. Do not you understand that if you had reason, as I have catalog, pens, ads and Parker´S document to settle my claim, you will have many pens and docs simply at hand to establish your questioning?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Glenn Atkins]

I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog Day.

 

Glenn

[Lazard 20]

I feel like I'm in the movie Groundhog Day.

 

Glenn

 

The path against the single thought is usually slow and sometimes you could think you're in the same place. It´s like that People insist on what we believe, not what we see. This is true, but if you think, today are many people who know that the Parker Lifetime Guaranteet begin before the BD. It is a very simple and obvious thing but it cost work. It's like that.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Brian-McQueen]

I do own those pens, actually. I own LOTS of Vacumatics. Here are the inprints. Both MADE IN USA. Both made in 1940 (after Lifetime Guarantee was introduced).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just because a pen is "very, very difficult to find" doesn't mean you can ignore it. An Imperial Coronet is "very, very difficult to find" but you could use it as an example if it supported your argument.

Edited November 17, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[Brian-McQueen]

Lazard, I don't know what you want from me. You said on Nov 14 to provide pictures of pens that go against your argument.

You got it easy, do not write, If you found these pens upload here photos of them.

I then showed two pens, to which you replied:

We see that you don´t present Parker´s doc and are forced to find rare samples for to demonstrate nothing. Do not you understand that if you had reason, as I have catalog, pens, ads and Parker´S document to settle my claim, you will have many pens and docs simply at hand to establish your questioning?

You ask for pens, then you are not satisfied and you want literature. What do you REALLY want?

 

To disprove a hypothesis, only ONE example is needed. I don't need to have many pens and documents. I have provided TWO examples which cast doubt on your hypothesis.

Edited November 17, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[joss]

 

The path against the single thought is usually slow and sometimes you could think you're in the same place. It´s like that People insist on what we believe, not what we see. This is true, but if you think, today are many people who know that the Parker Lifetime Guarantee begin before the BD. It is a very simple and obvious thing but it cost work. It's like that.

 

Yes, some people insist on what they believe rather on what they see. And other people only see what they believe.

 

There is no single thought or single truth in this matter, just different opinions and there is nothing wrong with that. Knowledge arises from challenging each others opinion.

 

We therefore need convincing evidence rather than assumptions. Every hypothesis is as strong as the evidence that is provided.

 

Would it be interesting to move this discussion to another Board?

Edited November 17, 2015 by joss

[Brian-McQueen]

Top right. "Very, very difficult to find" according to your own words, click here, so you should not argue this pen in a general case. Even so this "rare case" nor cause problem and have explication: Chevron band appears in the upper range of $8.75 Lifetime guarantee however this barrel is lockdown so non guaranteed therefore this is a "incoherent" use of materials regardless how collector call them and regardless was manufactured or replacement. Country of manufacturing and barrel code date could help. in any case a particular "Very, very difficult to find" can not be estimated in a general cause.

You are going against your own argument with this statement. Here you have a pen with a chevron band. You say that a pen with a chevron band must be guaranteed, but then you say that this pen must be non-guaranteed because the barrel is a lockdown.

[Lazard 20]

I do own those pens, actually. I own LOTS of Vacumatics. Here are the inprints. Both MADE IN USA. Both made in 1940 (after Lifetime Guarantee was introduced).

 

Just because a pen is "very, very difficult to find" doesn't mean you can ignore it. An Imperial Coronet is "very, very difficult to find" but you could use it as an example if it supported your argument.

 

Please note that Imperial Coronet is catalogued and "your pen" not. You can not put them in the same sac.

 

Your above barrel imprint, by transparency and non-diaphragm, seems top left and I said: Top left. No problem. (Pre-speedline=Non guaranted + 3rings=Non guaranteed) = Non guaranteed.

 

About the other with 1940 4Q imprint,1940 4Q with old non-split feather clip? 1940 4Q barrel lockdown filler 1st generation? If you have a LOTS(*) vacs; yourself.

 

Failed in your attempt to show pens against the theory you now could try this matter conceptually answering these questions -quid pro quo, now my turn to ask-:

 

A. What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

B. If Parker not recognized the Lifetime of non-Lifetime pens trought the cap band, how you do think they recognize this?

 

C. As you can see in photo catalog, Why did prices significantly different in similar pens except band or rings?

 

(*) Footnote. Many, many less that I have and I have analized, so I´ve spoken for the first time or almost about vacs, so, from memory:

 

- meaning of points in two digits period imprint.

- Different thread blind cap celluloid/metal.

- Subdivisión of first plain feather clip.

- 1938 pre BD Parker Lifetime Guarantee.

- Differents chevron bands, as you know now.

-1940 (not 1941) appears color azure blue pearl.

- Lazard´s vacumatic scheme.

- Variations in the MADE IN USA vacs imprint

- 400 Parker pre ´50 ads.

ah! Meaning or sense of the chevron band.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Lazard 20