One Vacumatic Less Usual

[joss]

There seems to be a lack of focus with this thread as the discussion started with the question: is a star clip correct on a 1946 Vacumatic?

So I thought we are discussing stars too.

 

But then:

 

The 1938 catalog page shows:

- 4 Vacumatic pen sets, with chevron cap bands, that are described as being "Guaranteed for Life"

- 2 Vacumatic pen sets, with narrow cap rings, that are described as being "Guaranteed against defective materials and workmanship".

So I do follow your hypothesis that the chevron cap band might have been a pre-blue diamond discriminator for Lifetime Guarantee.

 

But:

 

The "Guaranteed for Life" is only mentioned in the Parker catalog (which was available to Parker dealers but not to the public) but not in Parker advertisements of that time. The "Lifetime Guarantee" banner went public in commercial advertisements only in late 1939 and that was in Parker ads showing the Blue Diamond Vacumatics.

 

So might it be that the pre-Blue Diamond Vacumatics were simply not sold with a Lifetime Guarantee, irrespective of what is mentioned on that 1938 catalog page? There are many 1938 ads available showing chevron cap band Vacumatics so why was the powerful sales argument of "Lifetime Guarantee" not mentioned in these ads?

[Lazard 20]

1) There seems to be a lack of focus with this thread

2) The 1938 catalog page shows:

- 4 Vacumatic pen sets, with chevron cap bands, that are described as being "Guaranteed for Life"

- 2 Vacumatic pen sets, with narrow cap rings, that are described as being "Guaranteed against defective materials and workmanship".

So I do follow your hypothesis that the chevron cap band might have been a pre-blue diamond discriminator for Lifetime Guarantee.

 

But:

 

3) The "Guaranteed for Life" is only mentioned in the Parker catalog (which was available to Parker dealers but not to the public) but not in Parker advertisements of that time. The "Lifetime Guarantee" banner went public in commercial advertisements only in late 1939 and that was in Parker ads showing the Blue Diamond Vacumatics.

 

4) So might it be that the pre-Blue Diamond Vacumatics were simply not sold with a Lifetime Guarantee, irrespective of what is mentioned on that 1938 catalog page? There are many 1938 ads available showing chevron cap band Vacumatics so why was the powerful sales argument of "Lifetime Guarantee" not mentioned in these ads?

 

1) I agree with you so, for clarity, I´m going to open soon a new thread called "The chevron band as Parker distinctive Lifetime" or so with a resume where I will be pleased to have there your comments.

 

2) Not only 1938; 1937 also have a guaranteed with chevron band. We´ll see it in the new thread. And not only 1937 and 1938 catalog, also 1948 repairs parts list.

And we also see in the mid-47 as Parker Lifetime guarantee dies ... and also extinguished chevron band (this last USA ringed vacumatic are only 2 rings versions)

 

3) Although possible "why of the evidence" doesn´t affect the evidence itself. I would say:

 

3.1.) Authentic Parker customers are the dealers, are the dealers who Parker has the relationship and dealers who supply incomes to the Company.

 

3.2.) Good trade was based on practices of loyalty with dealers, so Parker took great care that their dealers, their really customers, did not have obsolete stocks. We can see commercial offers (two for one, i.e.) with the Duofold Streamlined before starting the campaign of Vacumatic making sure that its dealers do not stay with these "old" fountain pen "with sac" after modern vac "without sac" launching. Similarly Parker needed to fill the stock of dealers with Vacumatic Guaranteed before BD launching, because if Parker launches the Blue Diamond with dealers stocks with all not guaranteed these non-guaranteed not be sold well, so Parker previously were supplying them with chevron-guaranteed(*) at $10.00 (differents "Maxima") and $8.75 (Major & Debutante), identical price and identical guarantee that after with BD launching. They were extraordinarily good reading the market.

 

4) It's curious. You see it written by Parker and you don´t believe it. If so, Why write that if doesn´t? Why deceive dealers and representatives? Why pay $8.75 instead of $7.50 one? How would say Parker into catalog with Lifetime Guarantee and sell it without this guarantee to those who read the catalog? If it was sold non-guaranteed why it are guaranteed in the list of 1948?. Clearly it was sold with guarantee but Parker mustn´t communicate it between final consumer because otherwise they wouldn´t buy the vacs non-guaranteed stocked in stores and dealers and this stock no sold would cause losses to dealers, their customers. Parker could not throw stones at your own roof.

 

(*) With great success, by the way, so nowaday we can see many more 1938-1939 pre-BD with chevron band, sold at $10.- and $8.75 than with 3 rings sold at $7.50 (see note). !Grande, Parker! "Well done, Parker!

 

Footnote. It´s for that collectors nowaday are like crazy looking for a 3 rings Streamlined Standard

 

Edited November 10, 2015 by Lazard 20

[FarmBoy]

Anyone writing the article?

[mitto]

Anyone writing the article?

Yes, the first draft is ready. Just proof reading it. But it certainly needs technical editing by a Pro. Lol.

[Brian-McQueen]

Sorry I've been out of the discussion for a few days.

 

I think the chevron band design is just a style choice that Parker made, and nothing more.

 

If the chevron band was meant to represent the lifetime warranty, why did they choose a different design for the Debutante, which also has a lifetime warranty? Why not use the same design, only smaller? I think it's just design choice.

[Lazard 20]

Sorry I've been out of the discussion for a few days.

 

2) I think the chevron band design is just a style choice that Parker made, and nothing more.

 

1) If the chevron band was meant to represent the lifetime warranty, why did they choose a different design for the Debutante, which also has a lifetime warranty? Why not use the same design, only smaller? I think it's just design choice.

 

1) You are with me, preciselly Debutante have too "chevron" band, more little and some different but chevron... and curiosly Sub-Deb non_guaranteed and less expensive, ring (without chevron) .

 

2) If you are sure that not by chevron cap band vs ring cap, you should be able to give reasonable answers to these questions:

 

2.A) What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

 

2B) Why stay guaranteed pen with chevron band in 1937, 1938, 1939 and so on with Lifetime pens, Its to say during complete life of ringed vacumatic guaranteed, nor more nor less?

 

2.C) Why chevron band dissapears in middle 1947 when Lifetime guarantee dissapears?

 

2.D) How do Parker know which are guaranteed and which not in pens manufactured in 1938 and first middle 1939 and second half 1947 and 1948? ¿You are sure that not by chevron cap band vs ring cap?

 

2.E) Why in 1948 Parker´s recognize to employees and dealers that pens with chevron cap band previous to BD have guarantee Lifetime and all pens with rings have not guarantee Lifetime.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Brian-McQueen]

Comment removed due to Lazard changing the questions posted in post #46. New comment directly below.

Edited November 12, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[Brian-McQueen]

1) You are with me, preciselly Debutante have too "chevron" band, more little and some different but chevron... and curiosly Sub-Deb non_guaranteed and less expensive, ring (without chevron) .

 

2) If you are sure that not by chevron cap band vs ring cap, you should be able to give reasonable answers to these questions:

 

2.A) What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

 

2B) Why stay guaranteed pen with chevron band in 1937, 1938, 1939 and so on with Lifetime pens, Its to say during complete life of ringed vacumatic guaranteed, nor more nor less?

 

2.C) Why chevron band dissapears in middle 1947 when Lifetime guarantee dissapears?

 

2.D) How do Parker know which are guaranteed and which not in pens manufactured in 1938 and first middle 1939 and second half 1947 and 1948? ¿You are sure that not by chevron cap band vs ring cap?

Looks like you changed your post above, so I will answer again.

 

1) Yes, the Debutante has a type of chevron band, but with a different design. If the chevron represents the lifetime guarantee (as you claim) why is it different for the Debutante? Why is it not the same design?

 

2.A) The attribute that the new models had that made them more expensive was the Lifetime Guarantee

2B) I don't understand this question. Your English is confusing in this one. Can you restate it?

2.C) 1948 pens exist with chevron bands, especially in Canada. Canada made Majors and Debutantes until 1953, but they did not have a Blue Diamond. The chevron band did not disappear, but the Blue Diamond did.

2.D) They know which models were guaranteed. The Major is guaranteed, and the Standard is not. The Maxima is Guaranteed, and the Junior is not.

Edited November 12, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[Lazard 20]

 

Looks like you changed your post above, so I will answer again.

 

1) Yes, the Debutante has a type of chevron band, but with a different design. If the chevron represents the lifetime guarantee (as you claim) why is it different for the Debutante? Why is it not the same design?

 

2.A) The attribute that the new models had that made them more expensive was the Lifetime Guarantee.

2B) I don't understand this question. Your English is confusing in this one. Can you restate it?

2.C) 1948 pens exist with chevron bands, especially in Canada. Canada made Majors and Debutantes until 1953, but they did not have a Blue Diamond. The chevron band did not disappear, but the Blue Diamond did.

2.D) They know which models were guaranteed. The Major is guaranteed, and the Standard is not. The Maxima is Guaranteed, and the Junior is not.

 

1) Yes but you're confused because there are not 2 but 6 or 7 differents chevron cap band design in vacs and, by the way, all with Lifetime guaranteed, Debutante included.

 

2) More expensive because it have Lifetime Guarantee. Why else?

 

2B) I will try to rephrase: Parker vacumatic with chevron band have Guarantee Lifetime since Guarantee Lifetime appears from Guarantee Lifetime disappears. Just, no more, no less. ummmm.

 

2C) You have to be short of arguments to enter Canada here because you must know that in Canada governing other conditions and there obsolete stock was used... But, well, I don´t mind, I like it so, please, we limit this conversation to USA expressly and hereafter . No problem, let´s ttalk about Parker vacumatic in USA.

 

2D) Standard are not guaranteed so have rings, right?.The Major guaranteed, so have chevron. Junior is not guaranteed, so have rings (and curiosly is the only way to differentiate chevron-guaranteed vs rings-non-guaranteed in many Major vs Junior because the barrel is compatible in both models(*)).

 

Maxima is guaranteed so have chevron and Junior non-guaranted, so have rings. You don´t force because everything fits perfectly.

 

 

(*) If you knew history would know that this system using the same barrel and differentiate models and prices only varying the cap (with ring, with diferent width bands, with chatelaine, etc was already used by others manufactures as Conklin decades ago. There is nothing new under the sun!

Edited November 12, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Brian-McQueen]

1) Yes there are, not 2 but 6 or 7 differents chevron design in vacs but all with Lifetime guaranteed.

 

2) More expensive because it have Lifetime Guarantee. Why else?

 

2B) I speak in other words. Parker vacumatic with chevron band have Guarantee Lifetime since Guarantee Lifetime appears from Guarantee Lifetime disapers. ust, no more, no less.

 

2C) You have to be short of arguments to enter Canada because you must know that in Canada governing other conditions and there even obsolete stock was used.

 

2D) Standardare not guaranteed so have rings, right?.The Major guaranteed so have chevron the Junior not guaranteed have rings and curiosly is the only way to differentiate chevron-guaranteed vs rings-non-guaranteedbecause because the barrel is the same(*). Maxima is guaranteed so have chevron and Junior non-guaranted have rings.

 

 

(*) If you knew history would know that this system using the same barrel and differentiate the models with the cap (with ring, with diferent bands, with chatelaine, etc was already used by Conklin decades ago. There is nothing new under the sun!

 

1) There are two chevron designs, not 6 or 7. Please show me more designs if I am wrong.

 

2) I want to change my answer. The chevron band was introduced in 1937 with the Maxima, Slender Maxima, and Major. I have not seen evidence of a Lifetime Guarantee mentioned for any pens in 1937, when the chevron band was introduced. So, I don't know what makes them more expensive except that they a new model. When a new iPhone model comes out, is it not more expensive than the old model?

 

2B) This is not true. The chevron band appears in 1937. The first mention of a Lifetime Guarantee is 1938. Also, there are pens that were made after 1947 with chevron bands and no guarantee.

 

2C) You must be running short on arguments to dismiss Canada. If Canada is so different, why did they stop using the Blue Diamond in 1948? If the chevron band is supposed mean Lifetime Guarantee, why do they continue to use the chevron band?

 

2D) The Junior and Major also have different nibs. They are not the same.

 

(*) I do know the history of many pen companies. Models with the same size barrel and different cap bands or rings, etc. had different model numbers to avoid confusion when ordering.

[Lazard 20]

Do not force, let go by what Parker says. Look!

 

Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime.

http://s2.postimg.org/djcr61cg9/Parker_chevron_band_as_guarantee_for_life_Lazard.jpg

[Lazard 20]

 

1) There are two chevron designs, not 6 or 7. Please show me more designs if I am wrong.

 

You´re welcome but I thought you knew what you were talking about. Only from my memory without reviewing my notes:

OPEN LINES LIMITING ENGRAVED AREA. /////< >/////

A VERTICAL LIMITING ENGRAVED AREA ///// | |/////

TWO VERTICAL LIMITING ENGRAVED AREA ///// || ||////

LEFT SLANTED LINES \\\\\ | | \\\\\\

RIGH SLANTED LINES

(Left and righ is diferent bands so If you turn the band side, the lines is the same; right looking right and left still looking left)

DEBUTANTE

Some images:

http://s23.postimg.org/x302bz0mj/Chevron_bands_Parker_Lazard.jpg

Edited November 12, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Brian-McQueen]

Sorry I considered all those designs (except the Debutante) to be the same one. They're just different evolutions of the same design.

[Brian-McQueen]

Do not force, let go by what Parker says. Look!

 

Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime.

 

Yes, let's go by what Parker says.

 

Parker says: "Major and Maxima Vacumatic pens priced at $8.75 and $10.00 are Guaranteed for Life"

 

Parker says: "GUARANTEED FOR LIFE BY THE BLUE DIAMOND"

 

Now let's look at what Parker does NOT say. Parker does NOT say "Chevron cap band = Lifetime Guaranteed and Rings cap band = Non-guaranteed Lifetime" as you claim.

 

The pens are guaranteed for life because of their model and price. The cap band does not signify a guarantee. The pens which are guaranteed for life have a chevron band by coincidence.

[Brian-McQueen]

I have one question I'd like you to address specifically.

Parker introduced the Major, Slender Maxima, and Maxima in 1937. These pens have a chevron band. You said your theory is this:

Now yes, I´ll to try approach to affirm something.

I´m going to present here my old theory that the chevron band in its beginnings, during 1937 and until Blue Diamond appearance in 1939, could have been the hallmark which Parker recognized their Lifetime pens of those other non-Lifetime previous to BD

If your theory is correct, why did Parker release the chevron band before starting a Lifetime Guarantee?

[Brian-McQueen]

Also, how do you explain these pens? They are medium-wide smooth bands, no chevron, but have Blue Diamond clips.

 

[FarmBoy]

I think someone should write this all up in article form and submit it to the PCA for review and publication.

Anyone gotten a draft copy for review yet?

[Brian-McQueen]

Anyone gotten a draft copy for review yet?

 

Not yet.

[FarmBoy]

Brian,

Do you think it is possible your pens are due to the embossing/chasing machine being broken the day the pens were made and with tight productions schedules Parker just went with it? The other obvious possibility is that both Biff and Chet (the guys that ran the machine) were out sick so the bands left plain.

 

Todd

[Brian-McQueen]

Brian,

Do you think it is possible your pens are due to the embossing/chasing machine being broken the day the pens were made and with tight productions schedules Parker just went with it? The other obvious possibility is that both Biff and Chet (the guys that ran the machine) were out sick so the bands left plain.

 

Todd

 

Nope. Different width band altogether. These are a known model, as I know you are aware, FarmBoy.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2015 by BrianMcQueen