The Matador Thread

[JJPM]

Beautiful to envy.

 

 

José M.

[markiv]

Guys, anyone of you have ever seen a catalog of Matador pens?

 

I have not seen one but looks like this thread will serve as one.

 

While I am here who picked up this baby? Ended on 6th Oct.

http://i.imgur.com/x7Gl7vG.jpg

[Azuniga]

I have been looking for a catalog for so long time, but markiv is right, if we keep going with this thread it could become a catalog.

 

By the way markiv, do to the material of your recently found safety it seems to me it was done for the French market....

 

And just one more for today to keep it going, a Matador Standard 89 4 3/4 in long closed

 

 

[christof]

Matador Express 813

 

 

Probably pre WWII production.

 

C.

[Azuniga]

Matador 976

 

 

[tmenyc]

The slow drip, drip, drip of envious torture as these are presented one by one...please do keep it up!

 

Tim

[pomperopero]

Beatiful!

 

Matador 976

 

 

[christof]

The longer I look at these, the more I think that may be these french Matadors (the one with crocker filling mechanism shown by Ariel and the safety shown by Vik) have nothing in common with the German Matadors from Elberfeld...

 

http://i.imgur.com/x7Gl7vG.jpg

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

C.

Edited November 6, 2015 by christof

[Azuniga]

The longer I look at these, the more I think that may be these french Matadors (the one with crocker filling mechanism shown by Ariel and the safety shown by Vik) have nothing in common with the German Matadors from Elberfeld...

 

http://i.imgur.com/x7Gl7vG.jpg

 

 

 

What do you think?

 

C.

 

Well, I mentioned a few days ago that I thought it was a French Matador, due to the material (and also the gold rings), unfortunately i do not think it is like the one in the advertising, but more like the silver safety I showed...

Nevertheless if it is, it would be wonderful !

I hope in his next visit markiv will show us more pictures of it, at least the nib...

[christof]

You are absolutely right Ariel.

What I wanted to say/ask is if you could imagine that there was a second, french Matador brand without relationship to the German Matadors?

I have no proof for this, but it's hard to believe for me that the factory in Elberfeld made this crocker style pens - for the french market!

Now that you mentioned that the Safety shown by Vik looks French to you, I got the idea about a different French Matador brand. Just curious about about your thoughts.

C.

[Azuniga]

You are absolutely right Ariel.

What I wanted to say/ask is if you could imagine that there was a second, french Matador brand without relationship to the German Matadors?

I have no proof for this, but it's hard to believe for me that the factory in Elberfeld made this crocker style pens - for the french market!

Now that you mentioned that the Safety shown by Vik looks French to you, I got the idea about a different French Matador brand. Just curious about about your thoughts.

C.

 

Well, until we have more precise information we can only speculate...

 

Several questions come to my mid...

- I have never seen the logo from the Gerhard advertising in any other reference to the Elberfeld Matador, I mean a bull crossed by a pen.

- The silver safety I showed here says in the barrel "Matador argent controlé" but the typography (as well as the one in the nib) is the same as in the markiv pen and it is not at all the kind of oblique typography we know from the German Matador pen.

 

Now, I vaguely remember some time ago having seen another red ripple Matador from the same owner (markiv or Vik as you say) maybe in another forum, where I was questioning that it was a Matador since the M in the clip looked a lot like the Mentmore M...

 

If it is a Matador -and hopefully he will remember and show it to us-, the possibility that French did their own Matador grows. Nevertheless I can only imagine this happened in some sort of agreement with Elberfeld... since Matador (or Toreador or Bullfighter) is quite a peculiar name for a pen... I will try to find the image of the pen I am referring to.

 

OK, I found the image and first of all I have to say I have not asked markiv or Vik his permission to put this image here and if it is a problem please just let me know and i will take it away with all the due excuses...

----------

It was in the Spanish forum and he placed two great Matador pens; the one I show here which is a Matador 320 and a Safety Matador 50 with correct Matador nibs -both simply great pens- and I still think the M in the clip looks like a Mentmore pen clip, but that is another matter

 

 

By the way the lovers of Matador in the Spanish forum do not believe there are two different brands with the same name either, but more as I assumed until now, a German pen for export into France...

 

to be continued...

Edited November 6, 2015 by Azuniga

[kawuska]

And let's not forget that word "Matador" was one of the most popular name taken for namely anything.I don't think it could have been registered so the same name for pens in France and Germany-why not?I think some pen-colleagues here should do a little research in digitalized french newspapers of pre-war era.

[Azuniga]

kawuska is right we have a pending research there...

 

Nevertheless i wonder if the French would be also using the Morton New York nibs made for the German Pen sold in the US. And this 320 is certainly French, the material is typically French...

Edited November 6, 2015 by Azuniga

[kawuska]

I just found an ebay offer for Matador pen with interesting description:

 

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/ANCIEN-STYLO-PLUME-A-POMPE-MATADOR-LUXE-OLD-FRENCH-PEN-ALTER-FRANZOS-FULLER-/141812327423?hash=item2104ac63ff:g:I7AAAOSwl9BWLogF

[Azuniga]

I just found an ebay offer for Matador pen with interesting description:

 

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/ANCIEN-STYLO-PLUME-A-POMPE-MATADOR-LUXE-OLD-FRENCH-PEN-ALTER-FRANZOS-FULLER-/141812327423?hash=item2104ac63ff:g:I7AAAOSwl9BWLogF

 

It is unfortunately sold but I believe that was the Matador of the advertising we showed here.... What a shame !

[kawuska]

Speaking of old advertising: "Matador Turbo" from 1932 newspaper.There was a "Matador" factory in Krakow, Poland.I believe it was rather assembly line started in 1931 but still.It was owned by Leon Goldfinger and the trade names were: Turbo, Turbino (pencils), Presto.

 

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q732/Kawuska/ikc_dod_1932_zpsv0m88ucp.jpg

[Azuniga]

kawuska,

 

Thank you for this wonderful advertising, great. I also believe it was more an assembly line. Another point here is that it is directly related to Matador as a German pen, as you can see in the name typography as well as the kind of circled M in the clip...

 

We are still far but getting closer !

 

(I have to say I feel ridiculous not to have noticed -time missing no doubt- the e bay Matador you pointed out earlier, looking closely I am sure that is the same as in the advertising shown days ago).

[kawuska]

So now some other find for you, Ariel:

 

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q732/Kawuska/Matador%20France_zpssfdwvcod.jpg

 

the document comes from this site:

http://www.delcampe.com/page/item/id,293638666,var,75--6018-PARIS-192-Porte-Plume-MATADOR-Stylo-70-rue-des-Archives-usine-16-rue-Soleillet-a-DIARD,language,E.html

 

and another one:

 

http://i1356.photobucket.com/albums/q732/Kawuska/matador%20france2_zpso6eg0v4e.jpg

 

from the same site:

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,293638686,var,75--6101-PARIS-1922-Manufacture-Francaise-de-porte-Plume-reservoir-Stylo-FJ-RICHARD-16-Soleillet--MATADOR-SAFETY,language,E.html

Edited November 6, 2015 by kawuska

[Azuniga]

Well your research is certainly appreciated ! Thank you...

 

In the first invoice we find the logo as it was in the metallic advertising we showed at the beginning, and the typography is more similar to the German version that the one in the safeties we saw before.

 

As I wrote, I can only speculate but I tend to believe -thanks to these documents- that Matador pen was exported as it has been normally done and most probably they used assembly lines for their locally sold products, as you suggested for the Poland one.

 

The idea that is one and the same pen with different market details seems more convincing, but we will see...

 

I am enjoying this... Thanks again.

[markiv]

Wow! Look at his budding thread. It is fascinating going through everybody's conjectures. I can understand Christof's angle of a independent French Matador company. In my opinion it is probably a case of matching product design with local market style. The usual understated German design is a total contrast when compared to French. Consider the difference between German and Italian Montblanc pens and you may see my point.

 

Here is a picture #50 safety that Ariel mentioned earlier. The barrel inscription looks similar to the 2nd document posted by Kawuska http://i.imgur.com/wdKiYHx.jpg

 

Here is picture of the nib of the RMHR safety. I don't own this pen or picture. Source is eBay. Here is the link to the album.

http://i.imgur.com/jyQRae5.jpg

 

 

I will have a surprise for the group in about a weeks time - hint: it was already mentioned in this thread.

 

Cheers,

Vikram

Edited November 7, 2015 by markiv