Acryloid, Resin, Celluloid. What are the differences?

[danielnotnow]

Hello;

 

I have become interested in Italian pens in general and those made by Visconti in particular. But I am confused by the various materials they use for pen construction, Acryloid, Resin, and Celluloid. What are the differences? Is one "better" than the others? Do they represent quality steps? Why would Visconti use one material in one LE pen and another material in a different LE pen, assuming that the LE's represent the zenith of their art. Any help leading to some understanding would be most appreciated.

Daniel

[jonro]

Daniel, we don't always know exactly what we are buying. Take a look at this thread for a discussion on that very topic:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=28841

 

You can't really say that one material is better than any other material. Celluloid, for example, can produce some beautiful patterns and effects, but it is quite flammable and might swell if left in water. Acrylic might be more durable, but has other drawbacks. Some people prefer metal for its durability, but a polished metal surface can quickly show scratches. Ebonite, a hard rubber (it's used in quality bowling balls), has a warm, smooth feel to the hand, but there are limits to what you can do with it appearance-wise. Ebonite also forms the base substance of many high-end Japanese pens that apply coats of urushi lacquer and artistic adornment to the ebonite.

 

There certainly is a difference in cost. I suspect that acrylics are less expensive than celluloid. But the big differences in cost are probably due to the amount of skilled craftsmanship needed to construct a pen. There are also a lot of "hidden" costs associated with the trim, the feed and other internal components.

 

I'm not sure if I've helped or confused the issue. I'll have to leave it to someone with more collecting experience than me to provide a more definitive answer.

Edited April 16, 2007 by jonro

[wiglaf]

There is a warmth hidden in certain celluloids- and another type that is embedded in ebonite- I find no warmth in resin or acryloid- but that's my fingers- when in doubt, I would go with ebonite every time.

[PaulLeMay]

There is a warmth hidden in certain celluloids- and another type that is embedded in ebonite- I find no warmth in resin or acryloid- but that's my fingers- when in doubt, I would go with ebonite every time.

 

I agree completely, I really love ebonite. I wish more pens were available in it. I had a Danitrio, but didn't care for the fact that it couldn't be posted. I wonder what other modern options are out there in ebonite?

[meanwhile]

Hello;

 

I have become interested in Italian pens in general and those made by Visconti in particular. But I am confused by the various materials they use for pen construction, Acryloid, Resin, and Celluloid. What are the differences? Is one "better" than the others? Do they represent quality steps? Why would Visconti use one material in one LE pen and another material in a different LE pen, assuming that the LE's represent the zenith of their art. Any help leading to some understanding would be most appreciated.

Daniel

 

 

The idea is to have different pens that look different to each other and appeal to different people - it's that simple! Oh - and so that you can sell more than pen to collectors. There really isn't a better or worse: these are art objects. From the strictly mechanical point of view a rather dull and plebeian plastic can make a terrific pen body.

[meanwhile]

Celluloid, for example, can produce some beautiful patterns and effects, but it is quite flammable and might swell if left in water.

 

Re. the water swelling, I think you're blurring possibly celluloid with casein.

 

[meanwhile]

There is a warmth hidden in certain celluloids- and another type that is embedded in ebonite- I find no warmth in resin or acryloid- but that's my fingers- when in doubt, I would go with ebonite every time.

 

I agree completely, I really love ebonite. I wish more pens were available in it. I had a Danitrio, but didn't care for the fact that it couldn't be posted. I wonder what other modern options are out there in ebonite?

 

 

Some Bexleys for a start. And you could have a Pel fitted with a custome ebonite binde, I'm sure.

[Shelley]

Casein should not swell (used in rugby shirt buttons), made from derivitave of milk protein, but celluloid can - made from plant material and acetone.

[omasfan]

No offense, but there is a lot of uninformed talk about the materials mixed with half-truths.

I don't say that I know more, but just realizing that everybody has heard something else.

 

I wished someone like Richard could step in and clarify matters.

[Titivillus]

Casein should not swell (used in rugby shirt buttons), made from derivitave of milk protein, but celluloid can - made from plant material and acetone.

 

 

No I think you've got it backwards Casein can dissolve in water while celluloid will not. I believe there's a pic of a dissolved pen somewhere on the site.

 

Kurt

[Shelley]

casein is hdrophobic i.e. will not dssove easily in water, water is a universal solvent so it will eventually dissolve but not easily, old celluloid suffered from spontaneous decomposition, i.e. would revert to base materials, but whether that was in water or air I am unsure, new celloloid is virtually water proof i.e. table tennis balls, however ever tired heating a table tennis ball? Keep heat away from fountain pens!

[meanwhile]

No offense, but there is a lot of uninformed talk about the materials mixed with half-truths.

I don't say that I know more, but just realizing that everybody has heard something else.

 

I wished someone like Richard could step in and clarify matters.

 

I checked one of the major pen repair sites and my copy of Dubiel before posting. You could easily settle the matter in your own mind with a couple of minutes of google searching - or using the search on FPN.

 

Water can do bad things to celluloid, but it's rare and less drastic than the swelling of a casein pen - which is guaranteed.

 

Of course, knowing when a pen is celluloid and when it is casein is an art in itself.

[meanwhile]

No offense, but there is a lot of uninformed talk about the materials mixed with half-truths.

I don't say that I know more, but just realizing that everybody has heard something else.

 

I wished someone like Richard could step in and clarify matters.

 

I checked one of the major pen repair sites and my copy of Dubiel before posting. You could easily settle the matter in your own mind with a couple of minutes of google searching - or using the search on FPN.

 

Water can do bad things to celluloid, but it's rare and less drastic than the swelling of a casein pen - which is guaranteed.

 

Of course, knowing when a pen is celluloid and when it is casein is an art in itself.

Edited April 18, 2007 by meanwhile

[twdpens]

No offense, but there is a lot of uninformed talk about the materials mixed with half-truths.

 

Most of which is generated and spread by the pen manufacturers! There are actually very few plastic materials that have been successfully used in "quality" pens, for example: vulcanite/ebonite (hard rubber), celluloid (specifically cellulose accetate), PMMA (acrylic, acrylic resin, Permanite, Radite etc), polycarbonate (eg Makrolon) and ABS (mainly lower cost pens).

 

The vast majority of high end (plastic) pens in regular production today are made from PMMA. It is tough, durable, stable and fairly chemical resistant. It's transparent nature means that when mixed with pigmenting agents it can be made into quite beautiful colours which can then be combined to produce amazing effects (eg modern Conway Stewarts and Parker Duofolds).

 

Other materials in use in "collectable" pens, for example ebonite and celluloid, are chosen for largely intangible reasons. In Engineering terms they are inferior to PMMA but may appeal to a collector for aesthetics, nostalgia, craftsmanship, rarity, price etc etc.

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[andyr7]

Let me also clarify the situation on casein, at least regarding vintage pens. It will most certainly soften if soaked in water (it does not dissolve but will try to reshape itself to the original sheet form) - but it will also go brittle and be prone to cracking if kept too dry, as in a very warm centrally heated house. It needs about 6% water content to retain its optimum performance. In practice, certainly in the UK climate, this does not seem to be a great problem as many casein pens have survived for 80 years or more in mint condition.

 

This pentrace article by David Wells with comments from Don Yendle explains the basics quite nicely. The comments also state that newer processes (for modern pens) render the casein more water resistant. I do not know how successful these are. Anybody want to soak a white casein CS Churchill for a few days to find out?!

 

Andy

Edited April 18, 2007 by andyr7

[Longwriter]

Hello;

 

I have become interested in Italian pens in general and those made by Visconti in particular. But I am confused by the various materials they use for pen construction, Acryloid, Resin, and Celluloid. What are the differences? Is one "better" than the others? Do they represent quality steps? Why would Visconti use one material in one LE pen and another material in a different LE pen, assuming that the LE's represent the zenith of their art. Any help leading to some understanding would be most appreciated.

Daniel

 

[Jagdish]

Celluloid is a polymer that is ver well explained on Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid - Resin is a collective term used wrongly by many. As a material scientist, Resin can be used as a collective term however it is better used together with the polymer name, for example, PE Resin, this is polyethylene which is what plastic bags are made of. I have come across pen manufacturers state 'made from semi-precious resin', but never state the material itself, meaningless - we need the name of the material itself. I have no idea what Acryloid is, but I will find out.

 

 

<!--quoteo(post=273991:date=Apr 16 2007, 07:43 AM:name=danielnotnow)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(danielnotnow @ Apr 16 2007, 07:43 AM) 273991[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hello;

 

I have become interested in Italian pens in general and those made by Visconti in particular. But I am confused by the various materials they use for pen construction, Acryloid, Resin, and Celluloid. What are the differences? Is one "better" than the others? Do they represent quality steps? Why would Visconti use one material in one LE pen and another material in a different LE pen, assuming that the LE's represent the zenith of their art. Any help leading to some understanding would be most appreciated.

Daniel<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

[Jagdish]

PMMA is Poly Methyl Meth Acrylate - it is otherwise known as Perspex. It is a commodity polymer and as stated below rather versatile. Celluloid has its attraction in that although it can be purchased readily, you and I could (not recommended) make it and eventually make a pen out of it. PMMA can also be bought and processed using DIY type tools and more easily that celluloid. As with celluloid care should be taken with solvents coming into contact with these materials.

 

<!--quoteo(post=275143:date=Apr 18 2007, 12:23 AM:name=dupontfan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dupontfan @ Apr 18 2007, 12:23 AM) 275143[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No offense, but there is a lot of uninformed talk about the materials mixed with half-truths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

 

Most of which is generated and spread by the pen manufacturers! There are actually very few plastic materials that have been successfully used in "quality" pens, for example: vulcanite/ebonite (hard rubber), celluloid (specifically cellulose accetate), PMMA (acrylic, acrylic resin, Permanite, Radite etc), polycarbonate (eg Makrolon) and ABS (mainly lower cost pens).

 

The vast majority of high end (plastic) pens in regular production today are made from PMMA. It is tough, durable, stable and fairly chemical resistant. It's transparent nature means that when mixed with pigmenting agents it can be made into quite beautiful colours which can then be combined to produce amazing effects (eg modern Conway Stewarts and Parker Duofolds).

 

Other materials in use in "collectable" pens, for example ebonite and celluloid, are chosen for largely intangible reasons. In Engineering terms they are inferior to PMMA but may appeal to a collector for aesthetics, nostalgia, craftsmanship, rarity, price etc etc.

 

HTH,

 

Martin

[Bo Bo Olson]

celluloid can be very pretty.

 

Some of the hard rubber pens can be chased.

Some have two color swirls.

 

The pens before the war seem to be mostly celluloid or Hard Rubber out side the P-51. The 'first' modern 'plastic' pen; could be wrong but it was a new type of plastic...with lots less color.

 

Those after the war seem to be mostly excluded plastics in they are cheaper to make.

 

I'm not sure what Esterbrooks were made of but they were quite pretty after the war...to 1960.