What's A Soennecken Aristokrat?

[macquid]

Hello,

 

Can anybody shed some light on Aristokrat Pens?

 

"Common wisdom" as per Google searches is that Aristokrat was an independant German pen manufacturer based in Furth. However, I now strongly suspect that Aristokrat and Soennecken were identical...

 

1) Aristokrat's logo is a Maltese Cross with fine lines extending from it's center between each arm of the cross... in other words like a Maltese Cross superimposed on a letter "X". I just noticed that the exact same logo appears on Soennecken Primär pens. Additionally, the "line with a hump in the middle" graphical design engraved on the Aristokrat 's nib is identical to the one on the Soennecken Primär nibs.

 

2) Additionally, the logo on the Aristokrat's nib is a circle with rays extending out on the left side (all within a diamond-shaped frame); that is, a sun with rays shining out to the left (Soennecken is the German term for "sun corner").

 

However, Soennecken Primär's clearly are student pens. Not so the Aristokrat set I own. It's very high quality, with enormous attention paid to detail, and clearly was produced as a luxury model... lIn my opinion, looks and feels comparable to a high-end vintage Montblanc (two-tone 14K nib, gold Maltese Cross embedded in the cap's end-dome, gold maltese cross integrated into the clip, bas-relief Maltese Crosses engraved all around the gold cap ring, etc.)

 

Are Aristokrat and Soennecken identical? I'd be grateful for your opinions / knowledge...

 

Thank you. Friendly regards,

[fountainbel]

As far as I know there is no link between Aristokrat and Soennecken.

Aristokrat pens are rather rare, and there is very little known of the manufacturer.

Even members of the German "Penexchange" pen forum know little...

See :http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?t=7436

Posting a picture of your pen would be nice though !

Francis

[macquid]

Thank you Francis. I'll make some photos this weekend.

 

The logo and design elements overlap between the Aristokrat model I have and Sonnecken Premär pens definitely is "bizarre". I think the photos will show what I mean.

 

Thanks also for the German forum link. I'll check it out.

 

Friendly regards,

Alan

Edited September 10, 2015 by macquid

[macquid]

P.S. Just read the Aristokrat thread in the German forum. They're as puzzled there about the brand as I am

 

It's interesting to see the absence of basic similarity between the pen shown there and the one I have... The only thing that looks the same is that both pens have the same bas relief type of cap band with repetitive symbols all around the band. Albeit the symbols are not the same from one pen to the other, even if the symbols on the bands in both pens look like they very well could to have been designed by the same hand.

 

After reading that thread, I also now understand why some people concluded that Aristokrat pens might hail from the German city of Fürth. It's because of a three-leaf clover logo on the nib of the pen shown in the German forum... Apparently this symbol is remeniscent of that city's coat of arms. In any event, there are no three-leaf clovers anywhere on my Aristokrat pen.

 

Thanks again. I look forward to hear wha you think once I've posted some photos...

[macquid]

Comparative photos: Aristokrat & Soennecken Primär... Could the overlapping details be accidental... Aristokrat attempting to ride on Soennecken's shirt-tails... or what other explanation might there be?

Edited September 14, 2015 by macquid

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have one of those, but mine says Diplomat along with a Maltese cross on the steel maxi-semi-flex nib.

Gold Maltiese cross on the top jewel, top of clip and band has Maltiese cross(s).

Lucky you, a tortoise, mine is just dark blue.

[macquid]

Hello Bo Bo,

 

Thanks for your post here.

 

Yes, my pen also says "Diplomat"... not Soennecken. It's just the similarities (trim Maltese Cross and nib decoration) found on the Diplomat compared with the two Soennecken Primär pens that struck me.

 

However, since nobody has responded with any evidence that Diplomat and Soennecken were related in any way, I suppose these similarities, in the end, are coincidental.

 

Friendly regards,

Alan

[Bo Bo Olson]

Soennecken was the oldest German fountain pen maker @ 1890.....then came Kaweco @ 1900? and later MB @ 1912. Kaweco had thegreat nibs from the start. They used Morton US nibs....hand hamered gold nibs, where they stuck the iridium nib into potatoe's to keep the tipping from burning off. It ws first in pens according to Thomas (kaweco) then in 1930 it went bankrupt due to the owner's other '29 problems. New owner cut the high cost of nibs making them the same way Soennecken and MB made them.

 

Those were the big three of the time. then Pelikan bought the patent for the piston. Orignally Pelikan was using MB nibs.

 

Soennecken and MB had to be pulled screaming into the Pelikan piston pen era, in their's Sheaffer style lever pens were cheaper to make.

 

MB&Pelikan survived by making ball points sooner than Soennecken did. Soennecken started failing in the mid fifties, even getting together with a big French pen company, but by 1960 Soennecken stopped making pens.

 

In the '50's the Soennecken fountain pen was the best in the world....according to Andreas Lambrou...better than MB and better than the Snorkel.

 

Soenecken, MB and Pelikan were office supply busnesses, Soennecken still is...like Geha. don't know about Pelikan any more. MB is not, a leather shop, watches, cuff links....to go with the pen.

MB had at least 4 levels, counting sub brands....I think Soennecken had three, Pelikan three also.

 

Diplomat was a family owned pen factory.....could still be or was to @ 2000.

 

"""Since 1922, the name DIPLOMAT has stood for sophisticated writing instruments. Driven by excellence in quality and a spirit of innovation the manufacture for turned fountain pens developed into a leading manufacturer of premium writing instruments.

In the 1950's, the DIPLOMAT ball point pens were amongst the very first of their kind in Germany. """

Why they survived. Geha was the first cartridge pen in Germany. Pelikans billionair owner bought the Geha pen divison and closed it down. Geha was the school pen comp for Pelikan 1990.....1993 Lamy came out with the Safari. So much for plan A.

 

I looked up Diplomat.

I sold a very well balanced light, metal Diplomat....because it is a nail.

My wife has but never uses a silver plated one with a jumping horse in the cap jewel and gold looking stirup clip. They had a tennis one too.

In Diplomats are "now" nails I didn't chase them.

 

But my old Diplomat has a very nice maxi-semi-flex. but it is an old one....early-mid 50's is my guess, because of the short jewel, and 'torpedo' shape. That Maltise Cross is sharp.

 

Check your nib against your thumb nail to see how easy it bends. Could be your is also one of the semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex nibs that was normal with the Soennecken, MB, Pelikan, Kaweco, Geha, Osmia (Osmia-Faber-Castel) or the Original Reform...'50's era....

Reform was a great pen until he shut down his factroy in the mid '50s instead of making a cheap pen...

Some time later he sold it to a company that made cheap pens, and used the big name they bought.

The 1745 is not in a hundred years as stable and well made as the real one.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Bo Bo Olson

[macquid]

Thank you Bo Bo. That's a GREAT overview of German fountain pen history! A pleasure to read.

 

It also includes a number of points which I don't think are very widely known amongst collectors today (e.g. about the Kaweco nib, that Pelikan nibs initially were supplied by MB, etc.).

 

Although, clearly, Diplomat and Soennecken aren't related, I'm none-the-less curious about the Maltese Cross symbol which both these pen manufacturers at least sometimes used... From your experience, was this symbol put on most of Diplomat's pens; that is Diplomat's equivalent of the MB "star"? Or is the Maltese Cross found only on one single Diplomat model or product range during the 1950s/60s?

 

Also, was the Maltese Cross found on all Soennecken Primär pens? Or was this symbol possibly put exclusively on the pens they produced for one particular market (i.e. Switzerland)?

 

Friendly regards (MfG)

Alan

Edited October 15, 2015 by macquid

[Bo Bo Olson]

Not that I know of, I no longer have the Diplomat I sold with the normal Diplomat marking in the jewel.

 

The horseman's silver plated one has a a horse jumping a fence and a gold plated sturip. The tennis one had a tennis racket clip and similar in the clear jewel.

In I was very surprised the Maltese marked pen was a Diplomat, it is not recient.

 

I don't think the pen or pens like the Soennecken was ever made just for Switzerland. That would be more a regular red cross cross I'd guess. There are Pelikan nibs that were made or marked for Switzerland and the 18 k/750 gold nibs were for France where it has to be 18 K to be called gold.

 

The maltise cross could have been an early mark...just to keep it in legal eyes as a brand mark, like the Osmia Diamond, or the MB Splat. My Sonnecken has no marking in the jewel, I know others do. Kaweco also has it's own brand mark.

Early Geha had a small red enamal behind a gold G medalian on it's cap ring at first in the early '50's.. Then they went over to rings around the cap jewel for a while 5-7 years.

[macquid]

Thank you Bo Bo, You are very experienced and knowledgeable... as well as generous in sharing.

 

BTW, I believe Soennecken did produce some models specifically for the Swiss market. One I've had... at this moment I can't recall the exact model-name, "Schriftreform", "Schulschriftreform" or similar, possibly was offered in relation to one of Switzerland's various "official school penmanship" revisions... specifically the one in 1947 http://scriptaetlinguae.blogspot.ch/2010/07/schriftreform-in-der-schweiz.html. However. I may be mistaken about whether it was made for Switzerland in 1947... or, instead, for the 1941 German Schriftreform...

 

I also came across a Sonnecken Primär (not mine!) on the web that, at least according to that site, was a model produced exclusively for Switzerland: http://www.penboard.de/shop/hlist/SO/MBVI/0

 

It appears somewhere on that long page and says:

 

"Soennecken Primar Demonstator ... rare Swiss Version 1963, NOS medium

This is a rare Soennecken Primar only made in the early 1960´s for the Swiss Market only. The pen was made from transparent resin as Demonstrator pen.Never used comes with its original sticker on the cap. Soennecken collectors should not miss this item.

 

Soennecken Model Primar Demonstator rare Swiss Version 1963 NOS

Year 1963

System cartridge Filler

Colour transparent

Material resin

Condition NOS, with original sticker

Nib medium

available amount 0"

etc.

 

Again, thank you very much Bo Bo for all the very interesting information.

Edited October 16, 2015 by macquid

[Bo Bo Olson]

"die Schnürlischrift"....My wife is German and don't know the word, but thinks it's an overly ornate style.

 

I'm surprized that they had a Swiss Model that late in the '60's in I was under the impression they had stopped making fountain pens @ 1960. Perhaps a last gasp.

 

Sonnecken pushed it's own style of script from when they were making dip pens before they started making fountain pens in 1890.

Every school room had a poster and or booklet with their 'easier' script; which I'm sure we would find some what ornate today.

 

My unbranded Soennecken, has a OF superflex nib. I know it's a Soennecken because of the cap band and the Soennecken nib. Tall mid '30's jewel, Generic clip, with out their name.

Osmia was as high as I could afford to collect...back when they were going for 70 Euros, Sonnecken were some 20 more...Being retired has slowed me down, so now I get a better pen rather than instant greed gave me.

 

But once I'd put money away for a grail pen, a '50's Soennecken 111 Extra in herring bone. The best fountain pen made, better thanthe 146-9 or the Snorkel according to Lambreau. Which I'd seen go for 500 euros, the lizzard for 350....but It didn't come up, so the money burnt a hole in my pocket that fed the flock Pelikans following me down the wharf.

There was some Lady with six or 8 in all the different herringbone patterns.

 

By your self the Fountain pen book by Andreas Lambreau...mine is the older, the 1989 version in German....was happy to get it. In English it would have been nicer. They are still expensive even used...but if you can afford it get a later edition that had been updated.

Before I had that book, I knew absolutely nothing inspite of copying 4 Megs of info off this com.

Now a question comes up I can grab that book, either read something or look at the pictues to see if the cap jewel is early-mid-late '30's late 40s-early or mid 50's.

 

I was so MB ignorant, it wasn't funny. I didn't know that 'ugly' 234 1/2 pen I picked up as part of a live auction lot with my 400nn and matching BP&MP, was made only between '52-54, as a Deluxe with a Meisterstuck clip and different cap band than the original 234 1/2....It was made for them that wanted pre-war 139 looks, in they didn't like the modern torpedo/cigar 146-9.(Sheaffer New Balance clone). Suddenly looking at the 139's saw it was a more refined version in Standard size.

Ignorant, I thought it an odd and ugly pen. Amazing how a little knoledge can change an opinion.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Bo Bo Olson

[macquid]

All very interesting... AGAIN! Thank you Bo Bo

 

Yes, Andreas Lambreau's book, an excellent resource... In fact, I bought a copy from him personally during one of the pen shows I organized here in the 1990s

 

P.S. I love the image you created when you wrote: "so the money burnt a hole in my pocket that fed the flock of Pelikans following me down the wharf"

Edited October 16, 2015 by macquid

[JJPM]

Hello.

Pardon my intrusion.

I also have two pen Diplomat with the same logo and is very similar to photo Aristokrat.

Mine has recorded Diplomat and logo on the cover, clip and band. It has also recorded the "RAPID PEN 25" cover, as you can see in the picture. I have two more similar which has just recorded "RAPID PEN 16", then the other "RAPID PEN 15" and the last two, "RAPID PEN 20," that from left to right. I do not know if these latter are Diplomat.

Best regards.

José M.

[macquid]

Thank you Josè for offering all that further information!

 

The overall "picture" seems to get evermore enigmatic.

 

First of all, José's Diplomat pen (middle photo above) appears to be identical to my Aristokrat pen shown at the beginning of this thread... with the notable exception of the nib!

 

Diplomat still exists... and their present-day logo clearly represents a variation on the Maltese Cross superimposed on an "X" like all the pens, from the other brands (including Aristokrat, Soennecken) whose photos are posted throughout the present thread. BTW, I just saw an earlier thread in the FPN forum (into which I see Bo Bo also posted) https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/242569-diplomat/; the Diplomat brand clearly comes across as ANOTHER mysterious one... Another one! Diplomat's website gives almost no historical information... only that they exist since 1922, were one of the first ballpoint manufacturers in the 1950s and "Innovative technical solutions such as the first modern fountain pen, presented in 1958 as alternative to the converter fountain pen, were defining moments in the company's history." whatever that means? Perhaps a cartridge fountain pen?

 

Rapid Pen... another mystery. The term "Rapid" still appears as a model name or part of a model name used by at least two different brands today (not to mention "Rapido"). Historically, the term Rapid, respectively Rapid Pen are associated with Pen manufacturers in Austria, USA, Italy, etc. Perhaps (probably) "Rapid Pen" as it appears on José's pens wasn't a brand/manufacturer name, but instead the denomination for a model-line, comparable to MB's use of "Meisterstück" followed by a number..

 

The "thought" occurred to me that possibly the Maltese Cross symbol on all these pens was there because these different brand pens were produced for the same big customer, an organizationt which has/had this particular symbol. Notwithstanding, image-searches on Google, Yahoo and Bing, all failed to turn-up any image of a Maltese Cross superimposed on an "X". The overwhelming majority of Maltese Crosses shown have no decoration at all between the cross-branches; two exceptions were four fleur-de-lis in one case and four lions in the other.

 

It remains AMAZING to me that several unrelated manufacturers (Aristokrat, Soennecken, Diplomat, Rapid Pen) would/could all use exactly the same "trademark-like" symbol on their respective pens... at least not without an enormous legal conflict that pen historians would know about!

 

@José Have you ever seen this particular Maltese Cross (superimposed on an "X") anywhere else, or know what it could correspond to, besides fountain pens?

Edited October 17, 2015 by macquid

[Bo Bo Olson]

Jose, there are no intrusions, it is not a private back channel chat.

Definatly not an intrusion with such fine pens.

 

My computer almost died badly...so back Aol don't know me any more. As soon as I get into Photobucket again, and change over to my new Email provider, perhaps I can get old photo's to show back up.

For three weeks I was sweating the loss of three years of work on a huge Western I was working on. The back up disk had not done it's job either. ....so it took a lot of Zombie'ing to get anything back....including needed some one to tell Wim, I needed a new site email address, so I could get back here.