An Engineer Looks At Nibs And Flexibility

[Precise]

  On 9/11/2015 at 5:01 PM, Christopher Godfrey said:

I fail to understand why this sort of conversation continues to be of interest:)

Bexley charges $250 extra for a gold nib. I asked Howard what the difference was between the standard (stainless steel) nib and the $250 gold nib. He said the gold nib was more flexible.

 

I also found many statements online by pen experts who said that a gold nib was desired because it was more flexible.

 

So, I wanted to inform my fellow pen enthusiasts that a steel nib can be just as flexible as gold if it's thin. I also informed Howard of that, but he said the nib was just a purchased component.

 

But when you read this thread, you'll see some argument:

 

One argued that I had said steel metal was more flexible than gold. Of course I said the exact opposite of that.

 

Another chided me for posting. He said material didn't matter, because thickness determined flexibility. Of course that's exactly what I wrote in the original post.

 

It appears to me that some people took my post as an invitation to argument and jumped in without carefully reading my statement. Argument wasn't my intent. My post was meant to inform, not to provoke.

 

Alan

Edited September 11, 2015 by Precise

[Christopher Godfrey]

@Precise: I understand completely from where you are coming and must re-iterate that I didn't mean to be argumentative <or> to throw the cat among the pigeons. In addition, I now see a parallel thread about commissioning a flexible nib from one of the big manufacturers, which is relevant to this one.

 

It still seems to me that there are literally thousands of wonderful, vintage nibs out there, just begging for good homes! Why go to all that trouble when one just needs to try something vintage? My Mabie-Todd Swan, my Watermans, my Postal, my Wahls, my Pelikans...all write more smoothly than and just as flexibly as that demo of the Esterbrook 356!

[mhosea]

  On 9/11/2015 at 6:09 PM, Precise said:

Bexley charges $250 extra for a gold nib. I asked Howard what the difference was between the standard (stainless steel) nib and the $250 gold nib. He said the gold nib was more flexible.

 

I also found many statements online by pen experts who said that a gold nib was desired because it was more flexible.

 

So, I wanted to inform my fellow pen enthusiasts that a steel nib can be just as flexible as gold if it's thin. I also informed Howard of that, but he said the nib was just a purchased component.

As an aside about this $250 business, Bexley charged that much as their stock of branded 18K nibs waned. Pretty sure it used to be less, maybe $150 or $175, something like that. The type of nibs that Howard ordered before must have cost him a healthy percentage over the base price of the 18K nibs, and I'm sure it had to be a bulk order. With today's gold prices, making a large enough order to get that sort of customization may not in the cards. Whatever the situation going forward, I think the $250 extra business was mostly based on the economics of having a low and essentially non-renewable supply.

 

People love to over-generalize. Comparing 18K #6 JoWo nibs to steel #6 JoWo nibs might suggest one thing. However, I've got a Waterman L'Etalon that will hardly suggest to anyone that gold is more flexible than steel. Likewise, as has been pointed out, steel dip pen nibs are often extremely flexible. I remember reading this several years ago. Things do not seem to have changed much since. Still seems like the steel nibs are not engineered to give a "soft" writing experience. However, I do remember that the Hero 9300 had a steel nib that gave a soft ride. That was a pretty nice pen until the piercing tube crumbled.

Edited September 12, 2015 by mhosea

[Precise]

Incidentally, I've never learned the art of writing with a flexible nib. My present style is to press very lightly when I write. I once owned a Falcon with a fine nib, but found it scratchy and gave it my daughter who enjoys calligraphy.

 

So I'll save the extra $250 if I ever buy a Bexley. It would be wasted on me.

 

Alan

[sidthecat]

I love old flex nibs, but I won't buy a German pen from the Nazi period. And I might jib at a Japanese pen as well. One has to have limits.

[dcwaites]

For me, flex is not an issue, as I write with a very low pressure, just slightly over the weight of the pen. Arthritis in your fingers will do that to you.

 

However, for adjusting a misaligned nib, modulus of elasticity is vital. Too low, and it will bend out of alignment with every slight knock. Too high, and you will never be able to adjust the alignment.

I have one Pilot gold nib that was very slightly out of alignment. For the life of me, I couldn't get it back without damaging the nib permanently. I resorted to using micro-mesh pads to polish the high side down to alignment with the other side.

I have not had the same problem with any of my other gold or stainless-steel nibs.

[ac12]

  On 9/11/2015 at 5:01 PM, Christopher Godfrey said:

 

Now, that video attached of the Esterbrook 356 doesn't move me in the slightest: can you <hear> the scratchiness of the steel on the paper? And see the splashes of red ink down near the capital letter L? Sorry; but no interest at all: I can write just like that with several of my 1930s Pelikans or Waterman's...

 

 

That video unfortunately is not truly representative of flexible dip pens.

 

The scratchy sound is the effect of several things:

#1) The ALC of the audio circuit cranking up the audio gain, because it does not hear any sound. So you are hearing a magnified sound of the nib on the paper.

#2 That dip pen nib is SHARP. Think of it like an XXXF nib. So it will feel any surface texture in the paper.

#3) The paper. My guess is that the paper is not something smooth like Clairfontaine or similar. So you are also picking up sound from the texture of the paper.

#4) The writer is holding the dip pen at a rather steep angle. This tends to make the nib feel/sound scratchier. I hold my oblique dip pen holder at a lower angle and the flange lowers the angle even more.

 

Using a similar nib, and a light hand, I hear very little sound when I write. Go back to item #1.

 

But if you don't care for dip pens, then you don't.

To each their own.

Edited September 11, 2015 by ac12

[Precise]

  On 9/11/2015 at 11:08 PM, dcwaites said:

For me, flex is not an issue, as I write with a very low pressure, just slightly over the weight of the pen. Arthritis in your fingers will do that to you.

 

However, for adjusting a misaligned nib, modulus of elasticity is vital. Too low, and it will bend out of alignment with every slight knock. Too high, and you will never be able to adjust the alignment.

I have one Pilot gold nib that was very slightly out of alignment. For the life of me, I couldn't get it back without damaging the nib permanently. I resorted to using micro-mesh pads to polish the high side down to alignment with the other side.

I have not had the same problem with any of my other gold or stainless-steel nibs.

Greetings David,

 

Ease to take a permanent bend is low "yield strength". Soft, annealed, steel has a low yield strength. (Yield means that it stays bent). Hard, heat-treated steel has a higher yield strength and must be bent further to retain some bend. Yet both have a modulus of elasticity of 30 million, which is measured at a stress level below yield.

 

Pure gold has a lower yield strength than alloys like 14k or 18k. Many metals are hardened by working (rolling or drawing) rather than heat-treating. This is how 300 series stainless steels are hardened. 316 is a favorite because it has very good corrosion resistance. Almost all stainless steel watch cases are made from 316.

 

Some hard but brittle materials, like glass or ceramic, have no yield. They just break when bent too far. But they will return to the unbent state for any bend short of break. We call a material like this "a highly elastic material".

 

Best,

Alan

Edited September 12, 2015 by Precise

[corgicoupe]

I have been in one or two discussions of this topic. Precise has said it well that the flex is a function of two major parameters: geometry and elastic modulus. The modulus is a function of inter-atomic forces and is relatively independent of heat treatment, and varies only slightly with small alloying additions. The geometry factors can be quite complex as was mentioned regarding the "arc of the nib" and whether the thickness of the material varies along the length of the nib. (Two examples of the effect of geometry: Notice how a diving board flexes more at the free end than it does toward the fulcrum, because the board is not uniform in thickness but tapers toward the free end. Remove the flanges on an I-beam, and the same length of steel will bend more under the same load.)

 

I believe it is important to understand what factors go into determining the flexibility of a FP nib, if you are interested in flex nibs. Gold is more attractive and may be smoother when writing, but it is not what determines flexibility.

[Christopher Godfrey]

<That video unfortunately is not truly representative of flexible dip pens>

 

Noted, ac12: thanks!

 

Although started by Precise (for which, thank you), this interesting little thread has been well-summarized by Corgicoupe: thank you, too!

[corgicoupe]

  On 9/14/2015 at 3:22 PM, Christopher Godfrey said:

<That video unfortunately is not truly representative of flexible dip pens>

 

Noted, ac12: thanks!

 

Although started by Precise (for which, thank you), this interesting little thread has been well-summarized by Corgicoupe: thank you, too!

And thank you for the compliment, Christopher.

[pajaro]

Interesting how flex always seems to get into nib discussions, as some people think that the only nib you should write with is some old flexy nib.

 

I have a pen in my pocket, a Conway Stewart 87, that has a somewhat flexy nib. Draw it in a straight line on the paper with increasing pressure and its line width increases. I am left handed and couldn't be bothered to flex the nib, I just delight in using the lightest pressure and writing a very thin line. Almost like a Parker 51 with open nib. I have Esterbrook steel "extra flexible fine" and "extra flexible extra fine" nibs, 9128 and 9084 but never flex them. You have to think too hard for that. They function quite well as nails. Further, when you are left handed, line variation turns out a bit different from what it does for right handers. Couldn't care less.

[Precise]

  On 9/14/2015 at 2:57 PM, corgicoupe said:

I have been in one or two discussions of this topic. Precise has said it well that the flex is a function of two major parameters: geometry and elastic modulus. The modulus is a function of inter-atomic forces and is relatively independent of heat treatment, and varies only slightly with small alloying additions. The geometry factors can be quite complex as was mentioned regarding the "arc of the nib" and whether the thickness of the material varies along the length of the nib. (Two examples of the effect of geometry: Notice how a diving board flexes more at the free end than it does toward the fulcrum, because the board is not uniform in thickness but tapers toward the free end. Remove the flanges on an I-beam, and the same length of steel will bend more under the same load.)

 

I believe it is important to understand what factors go into determining the flexibility of a FP nib, if you are interested in flex nibs. Gold is more attractive and may be smoother when writing, but it is not what determines flexibility.

 

Right.

 

Oh yes, we love Corgis.

 

Alan

[beanbag]

  On 9/14/2015 at 2:57 PM, corgicoupe said:

 

I believe it is important to understand what factors go into determining the flexibility of a FP nib, if you are interested in flex nibs. Gold is more attractive and may be smoother when writing, but it is not what determines flexibility.

 

In my opinion, the most important factor is corrosion resistance. If the nib won't last against ink, who cares how much it flexes? In this metric, even the 300 series stainless are not as good as the gold alloys.

 

Second, for actual flex "performance", what you need is not modulus of elasticity, nor strength, but an optimal ratio of strength divided by modulus of elasticity. Or looking at the quantities, it is force divided by force per distance, or in other words, distance before something bends permanently. There is probably some engineering term for this, but whatever. You need to engineer / treat the material to bend elastically by "just enough", but then start to take a permanent set after that point. Otherwise, you will never be able to adjust the nib. Full hard temper 316 / 302 alloys used in springs, for example, can bend very far. Which doesn't help you a lot if you need to adjust the tine gap for more or less flow. Burnishing on a nib block (whatever that is for, I dunno) probably won't work either.

 

Another quality that must be very good is that the material doesn't work harden, nor fatigue. I have no more comments on this since I didn't find out any of these properties for 14K gold.

 

Based on my empirical observations that "if there is such a wonderful alloy for flex nibs, then how come dip nibs aren't made out of it and therefor resist corrosion?", I guess that there is no better alloy than 14K gold.

 

BTW, that Noodler's nib mentioned earlier is the second worse piece of turd nib I have ever used : hard to flex, bad flow properties (railroads and dumps ink) and springs easily.

[Precise]

I think it's a mistake to presume that designers and manufacturers of products are rational, choosing the best material and the best functioning design.

 

They are not all smart, knowledgeable, and rational. And even if they were, they are motivated by different goals. Also they are influenced by what they think will sell better or looks better, often at the expense of performance.

 

Look at your collection of pens. Notice how different they are. In an intelligent, knowledgeable, and rational world they would not be so different. But then we would miss the fun of collecting and playing with all these different toys.

 

vive la difference ... “long live the difference”

[nosygrammarian]

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:07 AM, Precise said:

I think it's a mistake to presume that designers and manufacturers of products are rational, choosing the best material and the best functioning design.

 

They are not all smart, knowledgeable, and rational. And even if they were, they are motivated by different goals. Also they are influenced by what they think will sell better or looks better, often at the expense of performance.

 

I would say that in most cases these days the motivating factor is what will sell better. Looks better is only relevant as it impacts how it will sell. The same with materials. Gold nibs are popular because they are perceived as luxury items and/or being better for flexing. Whether they are inherently better than steel is almost irrelevant from the manufacturer's perspective. What matters is what people will buy. The solution, if there is one, would seem to be with educating the community so they can improve their purchasing decisions.

 

In that vein, thank you very much for this thread. I learned something that I will be able to use to inform my purchasing in the future. I couldn't ask more from a thread like this.

[Precise]

  On 9/17/2015 at 5:14 PM, nosygrammarian said:

 

I would say that in most cases these days the motivating factor is what will sell better. Looks better is only relevant as it impacts how it will sell. The same with materials. Gold nibs are popular because they are perceived as luxury items and/or being better for flexing. Whether they are inherently better than steel is almost irrelevant from the manufacturer's perspective. What matters is what people will buy. The solution, if there is one, would seem to be with educating the community so they can improve their purchasing decisions.

 

In that vein, thank you very much for this thread. I learned something that I will be able to use to inform my purchasing in the future. I couldn't ask more from a thread like this.

 

Yes, unfortunately I must agree. It hardly matters how good or bad a product is, only "will it sell?". And this is not just the manufacturers point of view. Retailers too, only care about whether it will sell.

 

Thank you for your appreciative words.

 

Alan

[Algester]

  On 9/15/2015 at 6:16 AM, beanbag said:

In my opinion, the most important factor is corrosion resistance. If the nib won't last against ink, who cares how much it flexes? In this metric, even the 300 series stainless are not as good as the gold alloys.

 

Second, for actual flex "performance", what you need is not modulus of elasticity, nor strength, but an optimal ratio of strength divided by modulus of elasticity. Or looking at the quantities, it is force divided by force per distance, or in other words, distance before something bends permanently. There is probably some engineering term for this, but whatever. You need to engineer / treat the material to bend elastically by "just enough", but then start to take a permanent set after that point. Otherwise, you will never be able to adjust the nib. Full hard temper 316 / 302 alloys used in springs, for example, can bend very far. Which doesn't help you a lot if you need to adjust the tine gap for more or less flow. Burnishing on a nib block (whatever that is for, I dunno) probably won't work either.

 

Another quality that must be very good is that the material doesn't work harden, nor fatigue. I have no more comments on this since I didn't find out any of these properties for 14K gold.

 

Based on my empirical observations that "if there is such a wonderful alloy for flex nibs, then how come dip nibs aren't made out of it and therefor resist corrosion?", I guess that there is no better alloy than 14K gold.

 

BTW, that Noodler's nib mentioned earlier is the second worse piece of turd nib I have ever used : hard to flex, bad flow properties (railroads and dumps ink) and springs easily.

Each to their own though but for dip pens zebra made their g pens resost corrosion longer by plating it with Titanium nitride, since people by now probably know how long the chrome plated g pens last then yeah, that or someone really has to try out a war era pilot pen with a shiro nib I barely see anyone take a chuck at it more than just a novelty pen