Swan Leverless - 1060?

[grainweevil]

Well now, I fancy this brand spanking new forum may explain why I was having to use Google's cached pages to find info on Swan numbering this morning! Not that it did me much good, for here I am hoping for some expert clarification on what I have here. As a picture tells etc etc, on with the pixels:





128mm (5ins) capped, 117mm (4 5/8in) uncapped, maximum barrel diameter of 12.5mm (1/2in)

I apologise unreservedly for the dust; my DIY light box has lain dormant for longer than I realised - and apparently in the interim I've forgotten how to focus. But you get the gist, I hope.



Somewhere or other I came across the barrel imprint with the Swan on the left as being a "type A" and thus earlier...?



Everwhere, bar Marshall and Oldfield in Pen Repair, seem to say I should be looking at a metal button/insert/doodah with a Swan at the top of the cap. So again, earlier?





I confess it was the No. 4 Eternal nib I went for - stiff as a board, but broad. Yum.

Other possible pertinent facts are "Swan" L4 on the feed (as you can't see...) and on the section, and "Swan" on the cap. No model number anywhere.

I have fully gathered that Swan numbering is not an exact science, but have I hit the correctly numbered coconut? Or no cigar? Failing that, how do I go about working out what size necked sac I need if it isn't a 1060...? (I gather a #21 x 2 13/16 is the size if it is)

Thank you for your time and any observations, pens and cobs (and cygnets).

Cheers, Al

Edited August 27, 2015 by grainweevil

[Cob]

Well now, I fancy this brand spanking new forum may explain why I was having to use Google's cached pages to find info on Swan numbering this morning! Not that it did me much good, for here I am hoping for some expert clarification on what I have here. As a picture tells etc etc, on with the pixels:

 

 

 

128mm (5ins) capped, 117mm (4 5/8in) uncapped, maximum barrel diameter of 12.5mm (1/2in)

 

I apologise unreservedly for the dust; my DIY light box has lain dormant for longer than I realised - and apparently in the interim I've forgotten how to focus. But you get the gist, I hope.

 

 

Somewhere or other I came across the barrel imprint with the Swan on the left as being a "type A" and thus earlier...?

 

 

Everwhere, bar Marshall and Oldfield in Pen Repair, seem to say I should be looking at a metal button/insert/doodah with a Swan at the top of the cap. So again, earlier?

 

 

 

I confess it was the No. 4 Eternal nib I went for - stiff as a board, but broad. Yum.

 

Other possible pertinent facts are "Swan" L4 on the feed (as you can't see...) and on the section, and "Swan" on the cap. No model number anywhere.

 

I have fully gathered that Swan numbering is not an exact science, but have I hit the correctly numbered coconut? Or no cigar? Failing that, how do I go about working out what size necked sac I need if it isn't a 1060...? (I gather a #21 x 2 13/16 is the size if it is)

 

Thank you for your time and any observations, pens and cobs (and cygnets).

 

Cheers, Al

Wonderful isn't it how many odd Swans come out of the woodwork!

.

As I looked at the pictures I expected to see a No 2 Nib and was all ready to write ah! a L245/60

 

I would say that this pen is a L445/60 from about 1934. I once had a L445/60 but it was a later model and I seem to recall that it had a single wide band (I could be wrong as my memory is unreliable) - rather like the L470/60 I have now. I should say that your pen is quite rare as it is a de luxe model. The metal insert was a late feature probably introduced about 1938

 

By the way, my L470/60 has a hallmark on the band which dates it at 1934; the clip type is the same as yours: the screw incorporates a slot and the clip has curved tines that wrap around the screw. This feature is also found on the L3xx pens (I have one and so does Greenie!)

 

Sorry: another edit. Yes a 21 sac would be good; as 21s are less common and I have 22s, I use one of these and tie it to the nipple with thread whilst the shellac is setting. With leverless pens of this type it is wise to use the largest possible sac that one can jam into the pen. This of course has to be done without the nib and feed in place so that a blunt instrument may be used to push the sac up the barrel.

Cob

Edited August 27, 2015 by Cob

[birchtine]

I agree with Cob. The nib size and the band pattern suggest L445/60.

[birchtine]

or rather L445B/60 since the pen is quite short and almost of the same length as my L245B/60 clipless

 

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?

Edited August 27, 2015 by birchtine

[grainweevil]

Gosh, thanks chaps - you move fast! An Lxxx/xx model number; huh. I did briefly consider that, but was all at sea almost immediately so paddled hastily back to four digit numbers again.

So as I understand it from this chart, that'd translate as Leverless 4 (nib size) 45 (cap band style, somehow, known only to MT&Co) B (short) /60 (black - appearance and smell suggests BHR top to the cap, end knob, and section, celluloid (?) for the rest). And I thought identifying Watermans was complicated...

Well that's excellent, thank you. And for the sac advice. I've already successfully removed the section before I read "quite rare" (thank goodness), and Pen Repair is at my elbow, just need the sac; it'll be interesting to do something a little different from the run-of-the-mill lever filler.

Cheers, Al

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?

Crawled over it with a loupe, and I can't make any of the scuff marks resolve into figures. There might have been one; it's certainly not lived on velvet.

Edited August 27, 2015 by grainweevil

[Greenie]

I am definitely NOT the numbering guru. So my comments are in part to elicit replies for my own education.

 

L4xx/60 is the easy part. The xx is variable and seems to be based on banding. My later model L4xx pens include two with a single wide band and are imprinted L410.

The band at the top of the cap is unusual as well.

 

I can't come up with the years, BUT

The flatter end knob and flat cap top with swan imprint is the earlier version of the leverless.

The clip, on the other hand, is a later clip.

Someone could probably narrow down the date by the overlapping time frame of these two features Very nice pen with some very nice unusual features..

[Cob]

or rather L445B/60 since the pen is quite short and almost of the same length as my L245B/60 clipless

 

Edit: are you sure there is no number imprinted on the knob?

No it's not a B. My L470/60. L300/64 - and your L330.64 are all the same length!

 

C.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Cob

[Cob]

I am definitely NOT the numbering guru. So my comments are in part to elicit replies for my own education.

 

L4xx/60 is the easy part. The xx is variable and seems to be based on banding. My later model L4xx pens include two with a single wide band and are imprinted L410.

The band at the top of the cap is unusual as well.

 

I can't come up with the years, BUT

The flatter end knob and flat cap top with swan imprint is the earlier version of the leverless.

The clip, on the other hand, is a later clip.

Someone could probably narrow down the date by the overlapping time frame of these two features Very nice pen with some very nice unusual features..

Clip is identical to that on my L300/64 and its fitting is the same as the 1934 L470/60/ I think that the strange fitment is a clue. Also the top band suggests an earlier pen as it harks back to the 142/242 series.

 

C.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Cob

[grainweevil]

Would the earlier cap top with the later clip explain why the slot/indent in the cap is so much wider than the clip? Because I was wondering about that.

 

This is all most instructional - I thought I'd get a single "Yes, it's a XXXX - very common. Nice pen, enjoy" and that's it. This is much more fun, although Google's getting a thorough workout every time another number is mentioned!

[Cob]

Would the earlier cap top with the later clip explain why the slot/indent in the cap is so much wider than the clip? Because I was wondering about that.

 

This is all most instructional - I thought I'd get a single "Yes, it's a XXXX - very common. Nice pen, enjoy" and that's it. This is much more fun, although Google's getting a thorough workout every time another number is mentioned!

Well the cap is obviously original to the pen. The leverless patent was issued in 1932 and I understand that the pens first appeared in 1933. As for the slot in the cap, I would need to see a picture from the front. No clip as far as I know was wider at the top. There have been cases where the tops of such caps (also fitted to Visofils incidentally) have been damaged through insufficient care being taken when refitting the clips which being a fairly tight fit into the slot on the screw are apt to "pick up" on the underside of the screw and to rotate when being fitted thus damaging the top of the cap.

 

As for the decoration, well that was merely speculation on my part!

 

Cob

Edited August 28, 2015 by Cob

[grainweevil]

As for the slot in the cap, I would need to see a picture from the front.

Can do:

 

 

The left is obviously damage, but I've peered underneath the clip as best I can and if the slot was widened that much to the left unintentionally, someone did a bang up job of tidying it up neatly. I dunno, maybe it was a fraught day at Mabie Todd and this explains the clip fitter over-cutting, the number stamper forgetting, and the nib slit cutter going off centre! Friday afternoon, perhaps?!

 

No clip as far as I know was wider at the top.

 

Ah, that's what I wasn't at all sure about. Thanks.

[Cob]

Here's a snap of two of mine: the L300/64 (unnumbered) and the L470/60. Note the unusual clip on the L300.

 

 

I have just remembered that a while back there was a L330/64 for sale that had a cap top with gold band like yours.

 

Cob

[grainweevil]

Sorry, Cob, somehow missed this. Missed the fine nuance of the clip too, but see it now.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd update for the benefit of anyone finding themselves in a similar position that a #21 x 2 13/16 necked sac is too long (I'm a muppet; never thought to order a #21 x 2in as well), so looks like I shall be trying a #22 and thread, which sounds not unlike fly tying. Which would be great, if I'd ever done fly tying...!

[Cob]

No need to order sacs by length: one just cuts them down to size. The procedure is explained here and no doubt in many other places too!

 

Cob

[grainweevil]

Ah, you probably missed that it was a necked sac, Cob. I'd have to lop off the narrowed neck area, which would rather defeat the point.

[Cob]

Well if you can find necked sacs, you are fortunate! I have in fact have had to cut down the two necked sacs I did find in order to repair a couple of big leverless pens.

 

If one is fortunate one finds that one has a pen made after MT came to their senses and provided the leverless sections with a decent-sized nipple!

 

Cob

[grainweevil]

vintagepensacsandparts.com are stocking them now (Chilipea on Ebay, iirc). Although I could do with a guide to how the length is measured - I can't find an obvious reason for why this one is described as 2 13/16 ins. It's 3 ins. overall and 2 1/2 ins. to the "neck". Hey ho.

 

The nipple on this one is not too bad for size, and with the helpful little ridge as well, I have good hopes I'll get a good fit with the spliced #22. But if anyone wants to cross their fingers for me, I sharn't object!