Nakaya Urushi Deterioration / Bubbling On Pen Section ?

[fountainpagan]

I have no problem if my character does not suit you. I say what I think, like you.

 

I will know if I start making pens, that I will be able to be sloppy, make myself to be paid a fortune, and get away with it because, I will get away with it. Thank you for your nice character! I will take that into account, if I start such an endeavour.

[Betweenthelines]

I certainly hope that Nakaya's QC is not deteriorating. I have a heki-tamenuri Naka-Ai in the making. I was a little distressed when researching this pen, as I saw that the old Heki pens had a darker, richer tone, both in the brown and the green, and the newer ones were a lot lighter brown with less green undertones. I couldn't help but wonder if this is because Nakaya was using less administrations of the lacquer on their newer pens, and are indeed "rushing" as popularity for their pens increased.

 

This is all 100% conjecture on my part - just airing my thought process.

[hooper]

I don't think the 'test of character' was directed at you. It meant that Nakaya can show whether they're willing to rectify it and do well by their customers.

 

Anyway, the topic was about helping Nathan, not venting against Nakaya.

[hooper]

I certainly hope that Nakaya's QC is not deteriorating. I have a heki-tamenuri Naka-Ai in the making. I was a little distressed when researching this pen, as I saw that the old Heki pens had a darker, richer tone, both in the brown and the green, and the newer ones were a lot lighter brown with less green undertones. I couldn't help but wonder if this is because Nakaya was using less administrations of the lacquer on their newer pens, and are indeed "rushing" as popularity for their pens increased.

 

This is all 100% conjecture on my part - just airing my thought process.

I think you need to consider that, especially in the tamenuri finishes, the end product will always vary considerably - and double so for any color that is not black or vermillion. Pigments for brown, blue or green need to be mixed by the urushi artist, so the resulting color will always be subject to variations. And lastly, remember that you can take 10 pictures of the same urushi coating and it'll show 10 different gradations.

 

I was in Japan last month and saw the heki tame up close. It is certainly light, I think you should expect that.

[Betweenthelines]

I think you need to consider that, especially in the tamenuri finishes, the end product will always vary considerably - and double so for any color that is not black or vermillion. Pigments for brown, blue or green need to be mixed by the urushi artist, so the resulting color will always be subject to variations. And lastly, remember that you can take 10 pictures of the same urushi coating and it'll show 10 different gradations.

 

I was in Japan last month and saw the heki tame up close. It is certainly light, I think you should expect that.

 

I do understand the inevitable variations. But was compared photos of heki pens (multiple samples in each picture) from older years and newer years, and there has been a consistent trend of lighter shades of brown in the more recent pens.

 

Example:

 

 

(photo credit karlotatad.wordpress.com)

 

Top (newer) and middle (older) are both heki finish.

[hooper]

Right, I see what you mean. For what it's worth, the one I remember clearly at K. Itoya was definitely closer to the top, lighter version.

 

Not sure if it's allowed here so not posting a link, but Iguana Sell currently has a decapod in heki tame which appears a lot darker. So not sure there's a pattern in newer pens.

 

I hope you get yours in the shade you want - although I can assure you the light one I saw was very, very attractive.

[fountainpagan]

I don't think the 'test of character' was directed at you. It meant that Nakaya can show whether they're willing to rectify it and do well by their customers.

 

Anyway, the topic was about helping Nathan, not venting against Nakaya.

I see. Then my humble apologies, gary.

 

I will vent against any brand that has the pretention of excellence and will not be up to the standing, Nakaya or another.

If I go to the Ritz, I will expect, and demand, the service, the atmosphere, the food, the room and all, to be up to the pretention they have, and make me pay. If I go to the next corner little restaurant, my expectations are much much lesser.

 

To help Nathan: why wait until august to send it to Mora, since he is willing to take it back - if not for the fact of enjoying having the pen for a while, despite the issu? More bubbling appearing will not solve the problem. I would send it back immediately, for another section to be made. I hope this helps you, Nathan, but the choice is yours.

[kazoolaw]

I see. Then my humble apologies, gary.

 

I will vent against any brand that has the pretention of excellence and will not be up to the standing, Nakaya or another.

 

Indeed, the "character" reference was not aimed at you. Apology accepted.

 

I have also been known to vent on occasion, even though it is not always the most efficient way to resolve a dispute.

 

gary

[Painterspal]

I've come across this issue before on a Danitrio I once owned. Mine was a tamenuri finish. I did a bit of research at the time and I'm pretty sure I found a thread about it here so a search may be worthwhile.

 

On mine the section was was also the area affected. At the time I remember wondering whether the urushi had reacted to the ink in some way but that's probably unlikely, a manufacturing fault is more likely.

 

If it's any consolation, they seemed to stay the same and didn't get any worse.

[gillw]

I know this is an old thread but I wonder if there was any resolution? I have exactly the same problem on my Nakaya section. The pen was purchased from them directly in April of 2005. I noticed the bumps today. I am sure they were not there from the beginning.

[pararis]

wabi sabi

[rutherfordr]

Yes, that's the usual response.

[Al-Bajaa]

Pardon the necropost, but I have noticed that my Nakaya has developed bubbles at the section, only where my index finger rests. 
 

I bought it back in 2014. For a while I thought it may have been there to create more texture for the grip, but after I realized it is only in one specific area I am pretty sure these bubbles developed over time.

 

Has anyone else experienced this with their Nakaya ?  

[Globalnomad]

I had the same issue with my Dorsal Fin II ... the bubbling on the section occurred within 2 weeks of handling the pen. 

 

I contacted Nibs.com, where it was purchased from, and they had me send it back to them.  I was told it was a rare occurrence and when it happens, Nakaya would replace the section.

 

Unfortunately there is no estimated time frame so will treat it as a nice surprise once I receive it.

 

 

 

 

[Al-Bajaa]

The fact that I thought it was always there and a deliberate design suggests that it never really bothered me until I discovered that it is a flaw.  I will call it wabi-sabi and leave it as is.

[MartinPauli]

Just let me tell, how I apply urushi lacquer on Ebonite.

 

1. The ebonite section is shaped and ground with abrassive paper

2. The Ebonite is cvleaned to make sure no dust or oil has remained.

3. The ebonite is rubbed wwith Ki-Urushi (Raw lacquer) andd cured for 24 hours.

4. After well cured a layer of medium lacker (Naknuri) is applied and saturated with charcoal powder and cured for 24 Hours.

5. A layer of lacker is applied on the charcoal and curted for 24 hours

6. Another layer is applied and cured for 24 hours

7. The surfave is ground flat with abrasive paper and water up to 2000

    The foundation is ready for lacquering.

8. For Tamenuri several coats of colored pigmented lacquer is applied

I only use pure lacquer "Sukurome" mixed with Pigments but some use "Shûai Urushi, Urushi thinned with oil.

9. The color lacquer surface is ground flat and pre-polished with abrasive paper and water up to 3000.

10.- The final TAME transparent top layer is applied. Since it will remain unpolished all dust and particles are removed with a needle and is then cured for 24 to 48 hours. I can appear, that the lacquer surface is not perfectly flat as with polished lacquer. The final layer takes 24 hours to harden. In the first hours in the Muro, the liquid lacquer is moving respectively running a little bit until it has stabilised.

 

Ebonite is resistant against acits, water or ink and temperatures up to 150 degree celsius, meaning, that no liquid can go through the ebonite to reach the lacquer foundation. Urushi is resistant against all existing Acids or alkaline solutions, parfumes or what else and copes with temperatures up to 300 degree celsius.

 

Once properly cured urushi is hard as glass (Mohs 4) so it is technically impossible, that a hard lacquer surface can be deformed to show bubbles

 

I have lately published an Essey of Urushi which you can download here:

 

https://www.manupropria-pens.ch/angularmomentum-manupropria/uploadfiles/static/88c232f/16aa8898-3970-472c-bccc-cf3dda069e75.pdf/What to know about Urushi.pdf

 

In the last 10 years I have sold several thousand urushi pen and never had such a compaint about bubbles

I recommend to have Nakaya inspect and explain this phenomenon

 

[Globalnomad]

My one other Nakaya is 7 years old and has no issues with bubbling.

 

I'm not sure if it was caused by the presence of impurity, improper curing, or other factors but the bubbles seemed to appear once the pen was used as others and myself noticed that they were not there originally. 

 

Either way it does seem to be rare but can still occur.  As Al-Bajaa mentioned, the bubbling doesn't seem to interfere with use and can be considered wabi-sabi. 

 

However, since this was a new pen, I wanted everything the be as clean as possible.

 

Now for a purely academic discussion and as a former chemist, I found this website to be interesting as it talked about the effects of UV radiation on urushi  (https://majikkunotecho.wordpress.com/2019/01/24/urushi-漆/)

 

"The flat surface of Urushi changed into a rough surface upon UV irradiation. This change is based on the degradation mechanism of the Urushi coating film with UV irradiation. According to this mechanism, pores occur because the Urushi film of the outermost surface disappears first, and the gum in the Urushi then disappears."

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Globalnomad
Edited for additional content

[MartinPauli]

Interesting article, thank you for the link but by UV irradiation detoriated urushi doesn't look that way

[MartinPauli]

I have spoken to a very reliable pen retailer about the bubbles. He is aware of this problem and had to cope with it once a while.

He mentioned, that he knows, that it appears only in "experimental" urushi lacquer mixed with new color pigents or ingredients added to the urushi.

[Globalnomad]

10 hours ago, MartinPauli said:

I have spoken to a very reliable pen retailer about the bubbles. He is aware of this problem and had to cope with it once a while.

He mentioned, that he knows, that it appears only in "experimental" urushi lacquer mixed with new color pigents or ingredients added to the urushi.

 

That is interesting comment by your retailer as the bubbling occurred on a standard Aka-Tamenrui color (my pen) and Al-Bajaa's seemed to be standard Heki-Tamenuri color. 

 

Unless Nakaya used different color pigments or ingredients for these batches than I am unsure about this statement.  Additionally, the question would arise "why bubbling occurred only on the section and not on the entire pen?"