Measuring Flexibility: A Proposal

[Vintagepens]

Mauricio, thanks for your comments and your kind words.

I was going to respond to your comments point by point, but as I read through them I realized that you don't seem to have read all the way through my blog post or my previous posts in this thread. Nearly all of your objections are actually to previous proposals, not to mine -- in fact, most of them echo what I have already written.

[FarmBoy]

Force vs Deflection curve?

[Vintagepens]

Nothing less. And nothing more.

Just one metric.

[Mauricio]

David,

 

I have indeed read your blog post twice and your previous posts multiple times. I fully understand what you are attempting to do. However, with my experience with flexible nibs, I can say you are trying to cover the sun with one finger, so to speak, by leaving so many variables out of the picture while presuming on many other factors. These variables and presumptions are very critical to achieve a consistent and reliable desired result. The observations in my previous post were indeed related to the very specific measuring rig you proposed in this post and in your blog.

 

Lack of deep knowledge on the subject of flex nibs leads others to make what I consider elementary level observations about the subject. This has been very prevalent with flexible nibs for several years. What you are proposing will only lead to more damaged nibs, inconsistent and unreliable results, folks feeling like they now have "a very simple and very reliable" method to grade the degree of flexibility of a nib, and create more misinformation on the subject of flexible nibs.

 

Flex nibs are a completely different world that puzzles even wonderful folks who have been using and repairing fountain pens for more than 40 or 50 years. They cannot even fathom the unique world of flex nibs and all of their very unique and completely different nuances when compared to firm nibs.

 

Flex nibs and flex writing are a form of art, very much like painting, music, and learning and mastering a new language. There are no quick fixes and no quick approaches. It takes a lot of effort to slowly develop the skills and knowledge to master them. Folks wanting to immerse themselves into flex writing need to learning how to write and use their flex nibs instead of using these efforts to develop devices that will provide a number that really means nothing to a flex writer and a flex user.

 

With all the technology that is out there, no one has come out with an electronic device to imitate the same quality of sound and quality of notes that can be achieved by a professional grand piano player. The same applies to emulate the exact sound of a bird with electronic devices. No device can perfectly replicate birds sounds. There are different types of infant powered (electrical, battery and crank/spring operated) rocker devices. However, none of these rocker devices will compare to a loving and nurturing mother holding her little baby in her arms, warming that baby up and speaking to that child in that very soft, tender, and loving voice the child has got used to since that child was in the mother's womb. There is no machine that can replicate or replace the role of that loving mother. The same applies to flexible nibs. A wooden stick is not going to replace all the very unique motion, skills, expertise, feel and control abilities of a very well trained hand. A 100 gr measure will mean nothing to the arms and hands of a flex nib writer.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Mauricio

[FarmBoy]

More people seeking flex nibs means more nibs will become flex nibs. That means I will see even more flexed nibs. Guess it is good for business.

[beanbag]

I don't think there is a need for the pen to press down against a scale. All the scale is needed for is to determine the weights.

The pen can press down against a piece of paper, which is laid on top of some other smooth surface, like a sheet of acrylic. Then you just pull the paper and acrylic sheet out sideways and measure the ink line width. Then you can plot line width vs weight on pen. I wouldn't go by the 1mm metric for several reasons, the main one being that if a pen doesn't want to flex to 1mm, you'll break it. Also, broad nibs would have an unfair advantage.

 

I can imagine how the amount of friction from the sliding paper could affect how much the tines open.

 

One thing I would like to know is how an "expert flex writer" "knows" how much to flex a nib. Surely this must be quantifiable in some way.

[dex248]

I have many steel flex nibs and some are easier to flex (require less force) than others. I find that for myself, more flex equals more comfortable and neater writing. So, I always gravitate towards flexier nibs.

 

This force, or flexiness, in my opinion, is absolutely measurable and I would love to be able to source nibs with this type of objectivity.

 

You've already taken the concept pretty far with your prototype scale. I hope that you will continue to work on it so that others can benefit. Follow your instincts and who knows where else it may lead.

[Vintagepens]

Beanbag, great minds must think alike.

Your proposal is identical to what I describe at the end of my blog post.

[Freddy]

Mr. Nishimura you are too kind.........................................

 

Fred

[sidthecat]

I wonder if paper lined in rows of, say .05, .07, .09, 1.0 mm could give some idea of a nib's flex.

[Vintagepens]

Finally getting around to actually using the apparatus to make some measurements. Full discussion is here: http://vintagepensblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/measuring-nib-flexibility-continued.html

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rS4ztaPQ2v0/Vjje1_c1PMI/AAAAAAAACPU/jgpFKPKGUtc/s320/flex_test_Spencerian_1.jpg

 

Above is a Spencerian No. 1 nib I am using as a flex baseline.

Below is a Fairchild #6 whose performance is quite similar.

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BlaygU_GBPk/Vjje1wc8OrI/AAAAAAAACPM/xE-2xfchLMA/s320/flex_test_12096.jpg

 

And below is a Ladd & Miller that is even more flexible, though still not floppy as one would expect from overcooked pasta.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wAy_ab-dE2E/Vjje15trqVI/AAAAAAAACPQ/Nmj9jicVXjo/s320/flex_test_11869.jpg

[Bo Bo Olson]

Not all superflex nibs spread their tines the same width nor with the same pressure. Superflex 4-5-6 or even 7 X a light down stroke.

I have a 100n that is a 5 X tine spread, yet I try not to go over 4 X. I don't want to spring it.

 

I do understand where Mauricio is coming from, when I give 'noobies' rough advice, of "three" flex stages of super flex.

Easy full flex, wet noodle and weak kneeded wet noodle. I don't have a weak kneed wet noodle except in dip pens.

 

I use a rough and subjunctive 1/2 system that works for me....assuming you have a true regular flex. Each flex lower flexes @ 1/2 easier than the one above.

In the tine spreads 3 X only; true regular flex (got to have one of them....mostly semi-vintage or vintage...in most modern nibs are semi-nail), semi-flex 1/2, and maxi-semi-flex 1/4th a mashed true regular flex..

 

A long time ago, I got a bit OCD as a newbie to flex. Semi-flex all seem to group 'in the middle' of that flex rate.

In maxi-semi-flex, I had F-1, F-1 1/4 & F-1 1/2...the only one of that 'rate' and my most flexible of my 15 or so maxi-semi-flex. Later with 15 instead of five pens in this flex rate, many were at a F-1 only a couple at F- 1 1/4th. (after a bit it didn't matter at all) One was F-1 1/2.

What did it bring.....nothing. Way too complicated...way too subjunctive.

 

My Rupp nib the most flexible of them. And still lacks 1/2 of 'flex pressure' of being a Superflex(easy full flex) rated nib (my rating system). The Rupp is still is a nib that spreads it's tines 3 X a light down stroke.

You do have one of those nibs right? A good maxi-semi-flex?

 

It just helps....in it is hard to grab only a true regular flex and mash it and then spread the tines of Superflex, and see what you have. I can see someone wanting to use a number....instead of working their way up the flex ladder.

 

 

So The next flex rate down would be, Easy full flex....taking half as much pressure as a maxi-semi-flex. or 1/8th the pressure needed to mash a true regular flex 3 X a light down stroke.

 

Wet noodle takes 1/16th or half the above.

Weak Kneed Wet Noodle less. (only have in dip pen nibs and then there are the dip pen nibs that flex when there is an earthquake in California, like a Hunt-99-100-101 or a Gillette 303/404 (don't have).

 

I think I mentioned, Mauricio sent me a '20's Waterman 52. That showed me some of the complexity that is in superflex....If my Hand was light enough it would go from XXF to BBB....again I strive only to go to BB. I was waiting bend in the wind Wet Noodle.

What I got was a complex nib. The first 3X or so of tine spread, it was only Easy Full Flex, then suddenly it went Wet Noodle out to BBB.

 

(He don't like my 'system' in it is too simple minded, and he is right , when one is deeply involved with superflex.) For a beginner it works, IF they work their way up the flex ladder.

 

IMO about this and that weight is just so someone can jump into the deep end of the pool with out his waterwings.....and run back to nails, after ruining a few nibs. With out the chance to learn how to write with out stressing a nib, springing it from lack of experience.

Once you have reached the max of your nib....once only, then always stay under that max. Like I don't max my 100n or my Waterman 52. I stay a width under max.

You do have to have the experience to feel where max is....that shoving it on a scale will not give you.

 

I read, those who can write with superflex are most interested in fast snapback....not how easy or how wide the nib spreads.

My Hand is not good enough for Wet Noodles...well to use them properly. I get by with Easy Full Flex OK.

 

If you are really interested in Wet Noodles and Weak Kneed Wet Noodles see Maurcio....and even there there is variance in when and where a nib flexes to what degree.(Easy full flex is a very nice nib too) Or some sellers here on the Com's sale section. Ask for Weak Kneed Wet Noodles if you must. Hopefully you will be ready for it. In it will cost you $$$$ to get it repaired...once sprung.

 

Some superflex only spread their tines 4 X a light down stroke, others 5 x, or 6x and a few 7X....I wonder how many nibs are ruined by folks over maxing them and selling a sprung nib?

 

If you have worked your way up the flex ladder, then you should have some experience that tells you, you are over stressing your nib.

 

If you just jump into a number system, you will not have that experience. A sprung nib can be repaired....but I don't think it will be quite the nib it once was.

 

You have to buy from someone who knows what he is doing...or what he is selling....like someone here in the sales section, you can ask....perhaps he has an electric scale....what though if the nib is like my Waterman, with it's two flex rates? It is still a superflex, even if it is more complex than I expected.

 

Remember LA was not built in a day.

[Richardtractorguy]

Wow! Very interesting topic. I hope no gets upset that I reply to such an old thread. David, in material properties you were constructing something very similar to a stress/strain curve. Glad you never reached the yield point.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Regular flex is still the rarest of all pen flexes....so few folks have one.

 

Mauricio is still right.

 

Since then, when this post was new, it came out that all the folks talking about how slow they wrote with semi-flex were doing what I call nib abuse and over stressing a nib to do calligraphy with it.

When IMO semi-flex is a flair nib; due to ease of tine spread and bend, the start of the first letter, loops and T crossings are fatter in a word than the rest. Giving one that old fashioned script.

 

And I just scribble along like normal. So I was rather slow on the pick up, to why they were slow.

If I drew Calligraphy letters, I'd be slow if I was using a stiff italic nib or a superflex nib. Or maxing a semi-flex.

[Aether]

There has never been an agreed upon measure of flexibility, there has never really been a need for one.  It's only today when - I suspect - sellers want to maximise their earnings by putting a number on flexibility that we suddenly want to have a measure.

 

I doubt you will find any calligrapher who can tell you, off the top of their head, how much pressure (in grams or whatever) they are exerting on a particular nib while writing. 

 

Also of note is that giant swells are really only seen in high level calligraphy, not in regular writing. 

 

Edit: writing with flexible tips does not have to be slow.  If trained properly a script with some ornamentation can be a nicely flowing and fast hand.