Too Much Information - Nib For A Leftie?

[Anachronos]

Well, now I am totally confused!

 

I attended the DC Pen show last year and after testing all of Nibs.com Nakaya nibs, I selected the Neo Standard with a 1.1 (prior to re-grinding) Reverse Oblique(right footed) double broad with increased flex to be created by Mr. Mottishaw. I am a left underwriter with a tripod grip, usually slightly higher than the usual 45° and light to moderate pressure. I love the appearance of formal italic writing with line variation and shading and write in modern or formal italics.

 

I was completely comfortable with my choice (maybe just a tinge of concern), but over time and having read almost everything posted on FPN and on the net, I am no longer sure that I chose wisely.

 

So please, all you left handed modern italic writers (and anyone else that would like to chip in) Some questions:

 

1. As Richard Binder says, "there is no such thing as a left-handed pen", but there seems to be a case for using a right oblique to get the thicks and thins in the right places, or would a simple italic nib do the same job,as I have read in other articles.(at a lower cost, and perish the thought, better resale value)

So should I stick with my choice or wait another couple of months for the DC Pen show and try them all again or go with my original gut feel?

2. Would a .8,.9 or 1.0 width be best for providing line variation without it "spreading" too much.

3. Is there any difference in the appearance of a 15° or 30° cut, or is it more to do with hand position.

 

I know much of this will be personal opinion but, your input will be most helpful!

 

[jhataway]

Hello,

 

I am also a left handed underwriter. I have cursive italics done by Richard in 0.7 and 0.9 widths. They are not obliques, and I get pleanty of line variation. Shading depends on the ink. I enjoy both nibs, but the 0.7 is my favorite. I also have a 1.1 CI that Richard ground for me, and it also gives great line variation. But I have to slow down writing speed to keep the nib on the sweet spot. with hindsight, I would have had this nib done with a stub grind. All of these nibs are Pelikan M600's.

 

I have never quite understood why an oblique is needed/wanted, since in order to have the nib placed correctly on paper the pen must be rotated. But maybe I just don't understand.

[ac12]

Well I'm a rightie, and I decided that I do not like a left-foot oblique. The thick and thins are in the wrong axis for me, the thick line was on the horizontal stoke. I replaced the left-foot oblique nib with a round tip F nib, after 3 months of trying but not being able to get used to the left-foot oblique nib. A right-foot oblique would work better for me, to have the thick on the down stroke.

 

As for straight italic or CI nib, vs oblique, that depends on how you hold the pen (axis) in relation to the down stroke. If you hold the pen in line with the down stroke, then a standard italic nib would be fine. At least for the way I prefer to write, with a thicker down stroke.

 

I have a RH friend who just loves a left-foot oblique.

This is the complete opposite of my choice.

 

What I am saying is that what type of nib you like (left foot, right foot, or straight) depends on how YOU like your ink line to look.

 

A Lamy 1.1 is about the max that I would use on a daily basis, on WIDE ruled paper. I would rather have a slightly narrower nib, maybe about 0.8 or 0.9mm, to make it more flexible to work in slightly narrower lines such as college ruled paper. But then I would have the nib ground such that I have a narrow horizontal stroke, to maximize the vertical/horizontal difference of the width of the ink line.

Edited June 15, 2015 by ac12

[Anachronos]

Thanks for the replies, I agree that a 1.0 nib might be too wide and the .7 to .9mm would be more to my liking. l also like the suggestion of having it ground so the that I have a narrow horizontal stroke, to maximize the vertical/horizontal difference of the width of the ink line, does that particular grind have a name?.

Does anyone understand what the 15° versus 30º cut of the nib make?

Also, I have decided to wait for the DC Pen Show to review the actual nibs again, I have waited this long I might as well wait a couple more months to ensure I selected the correct nib.

[ac12]

One comment about nib angle re axis.

Traditional italic is written with the axis of the pen at about 45 degrees (coming from approx 430 on the clock, or SE on the compass).

So the down-stroke is not the thickest stroke line, it is the stroke that goes from top left to bottom right that is thickest. And the thinnest stroke line is the stroke from bottom left to upper right.

- Note the pen angle, italic is a RIGHT HAND defined style.

 

When I use a Lamy 1.1 for cursive/script writing with a tilt to the right, the down-stroke is thinner than an upright italic down-stroke. I just ignore this and enjoy the nib for creating the variable line width writing. Most people getting and reading it won't care about the details, only that it looks "neat." Only if I really want to get fussy, I will pull out my flex dip pen on an oblique holder to get the wide down-stroke. Or at some point, I may get a right-foot oblique nib, to do what I want.

 

So in the end, it is what YOU like.

Never mind what others say is "proper."

To heck with "proper," do what YOU like.

It is YOUR writing.

 

I presume the 15º and 30º refers to the oblique angle from a straight edge italic nib. So 30º would be a more angled nib than 15º. But as they say about ass-u-me, check with the nib meister first, or you could make a wrong ass-um-ption. The effect you get will depend on your hand position vs the writing line. And again, what YOU like.

 

If you have a plain cursive italic nib, I suggest you play with that and your Nakaya, writing with different pen to line angles, and think about how the ink line would be different with a different grind, and if you would or would not like it.

 

gud luk

[Anachronos]

Thanks for the replies, maybe I wasn't clear on my goal, which while the appearance of my writing is important, how the nib behaves is my main concern. As I said, I tried all of the nibs that Nibs.com had at the show (several times) and I selected the Reverse Oblique because it was the smoothest writer I tried. I could hardly get the left oblique (left footed) to write at all, the stub was great looking but not as smooth, and the italic nib was scratchy and caught on the corners unless I had it perfectly aligned on the sweet spot.

My concern is that I might have mistaken the nib that I selected as a right oblique when it was something else, especially after reading all the reviews of which nib was "right" for a leftie. Yes, I want the writing to look correct, but most of all I don't want to end up with an expensive pen that I have a difficult time getting it to write.

So, yes I agree with all the statements that I should not worry what others think of my writing, but I still want it to write without difficulty

[sidthecat]

I'm left-handed and I like my stubs straight across. One has to accept that the alphabet simply wasn't made for us.

[takkun]

Interesting topic, and I just posted something about this last night. I had a 1.1 stub that I ground down to a right-foot italic for the same reasons. I write with my pen at a 45 degree angle as a left-hander (so 7:30 on the clock face) and found that, in either case most of my strokes are made with the broad edge of the nib, going top-right-to-bottom-left and vice versa. So no line variation, or at best, the opposite of this:

http://www.nickthenibs.co.uk/images/ItalicA.jpg

 

To get that sort of line weight with a stub as a left hander, I'd have to hook my hand severely over the line, so the nib would be 180º of what a right-hander would see.

 

Basically, I too read widely that a right-foot oblique works well for left-handed underwriters, but I'm not entirely convinced that it's true for an italic, just for those that rotate the pen in their hand.

 

Perhaps try a regular/left foot oblique in a dip pen and see if that works better for you. I've got a penholder floating around somewhere and might try that before I mangle another nib.

 

I guess that might answer the first and second questions. Re: nib width, I guess it depends. if you're having the same problem as me and getting virtually no line variation because of the pen angle w/r/t the line of writing, it probably won't make much difference.

 

I'm in the same boat as you. It's all very confusing based on what I read, and the local B&M shop doesn't have much in the way of specialty nibs aside from the occasional Speedball dip nib, so it's a painful and expensive exercise of trial and error.

[Anachronos]

Exactly! I have a TWSBI Micarta that was ground for me by Pendleton Brown as a right footed nib, it is a smooth writer, but I can't, for the life of me, get line variation with it, and thought it was just me not holding the pen correctly.( rotated to the right at a 45° angle.). What started me reviewing everything I could find was a little book by Tom Gourdie, "Improving Your Handwriting" that was published in 1975 in London, which I believe was used to teach Italics. I had read prior to this that a right oblique (right footed) was for lefties, but he turned my thinking on its head. To quote him "...with the provision of the left oblique nib to ease matters (left handed Italic writing), the left-handed have shown that this can be done -- and done extremely well". He said that the "Italic pen must be held pointed more or less towards the body" and had an illustration of the nib and it is indeed a left footed nib. I'll have to see if I have any left footed oblique dip pen nib and try it as you suggested.

[takkun]

I poked around a bit, and found this illustration online:

http://www.italic-handwriting.org/images/anna-hornby-left-hand-diagram.jpg

After trying every possible writing posture without contorting myself too badly, I'm pretty convinced that a right-foot oblique isn't going to give a lot of line variation. It's comfortable to write with, for sure, though. This illustration from an italic handwriting website seems to make more sense: if you're writing 90º to the line (which, admittedly isn't too comfortable for me), the *left*-oblique could make up a bit for being left-handed.

 

 

And my experiment was conducted on a TWSBI too, a Vac with a 1.1 stock stub. It writes incredibly smoothly, albeit like a marker since the broad edge is always in the direction of writing. Again, my guess on all these recommendations is either mixed-up terminology (i.e., calling something a left/right oblique based on handedness), or doesn't apply to italic nibs.

 

Just when you thought it wasn't bad enough for left-handers...

[Algester]

I'm an over writer when it comes to italic writing I to get the line variation that is required of an itilac writing albeit it's very very very uncomfortable in the long run mine is a right foot Lamy oblique that I ground myself

right foot meaning it follows the general shape of the right foot

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/224534-left-handed-italic/page-2?do=findComment&comment=3111011

and as such I made this referential material

Edited June 28, 2015 by Algester

[Anachronos]

Hi everyone,

I really appreciate all your input and was just wondering if I should start a new thread on nib nomenclature or just continue the subject here.

I am not a total newbie, but this is driving me crazy!

Someway we should try to standardize the nomenclature for left handed, right handed, left footed, right footed, reverse oblique, oblique, right oblique, left oblique, etc, etc, etc.

For instance from:

RichardsPens.com

While Mr.Binder makes a great point that a left-hander doesn’t have to use a specific nib to get beautiful results and that if you want to use an oblique, it depends on the pen hold (above or below the line). His explanations of various nibs are some of the best I have found, but it can still be confusing if one wishes to use an oblique or italic nib.

As he says, “Most left-handed underwriters who use obliques prefer right-foot nibs while most over writers use left-foot obliques if they use any obliques.

Almost all of my right-handed clients who use obliques prefer left-foot nibs unless they’re experienced calligraphers.”

nibs.com

Again, Mr. Motashaw does a great job of explaining and demonstrating various nibs and states: “An oblique tip is cut at an angle, which is usually about 15 degrees, normally from top right to lower left. This is called a left oblique and is normally used by right-handed writers.

Reverse Oblique is a very rare form of customization that provides for the broadest stroke on the reverse diagonal. It is extremely position-sensitive and demanding on the skills of the end user - most pen owners will be much happier with customizations to Left Oblique or Cursive Italic. Some lefties like this one because it requires a clockwise rotation of the nib, making the top surface of the nib more visible to them while they write.”

from the Society for Italic Handwriting, Writing Matters, autumn 2000:

“Because of the way they write, left-handers will find that reverse oblique italics are more suited to the way thy write”. But then they go on to state: “Use a very oblique (left footed ) nib keeping below the writing line. Which is it?

Everything seems (fairly) copacetic until you look at something like the following from Parker Pen Co. and even they can’t match up the image to the description!( Note the Oblique Italic and Reverse oblique italic have the same (left footed) cut.

So what should one do? It is would probably be best to try them all and decide for yourself, but sometimes it isn't easy to find a Fountain Pen brick and mortar store and there doesn't appear a consensus of opinion or nomenclature so perhaps the FPN could offer a standard definition that would encompass most of the nib variations.

[Iollan]

This is rather odd, as I have ground more than a few of my own nibs and I can't for the life of me understand how a left-handed underwriter (I'm one) can use a right-footed oblique (I've tried one and the line variation I get is fairly odd). From my understanding, for a left-handed overwriter, a normal stub will do (same for the right-handed underwriter), whereas the right-footed oblique is theoretically used by a right-handed overwriter. This is barring any additional rotation done to the paper orientation - which is more or less unchanged.

 

The one that really fit me, a left hander writing under the line, was a 30 degrees left-footed oblique. The nib has to be rotated anti-clockwise to find the sweetspot for the nib, but otherwise, the line variation is more or less what you'd get with a normal stub used by a right hander.

 

As for the Parker issue - I came across this little snippet on nibs.com:

 

The oblique tip is cut at an angle, usually about 15 degrees, normally from top right to lower left, looking like ones left foot from the top. This is usually called a Left Oblique. Unfortunately, some companies, including Parker Pen, call this a Right Oblique. A true Right Oblique point, also called a Reverse Oblique, has a slant exactly the opposite of a Left Oblique and is used by only a few right-handed writers. http://www.nibs.com/FAQDifferenceBetweenNibsAnswer.htm

 

I'd ignore the Parker nomenclature to prevent confusion.

[jmccarty3]

This is timely. I also am a left-handed underwriter, and I have been curious about right oblique nibs, but not enough to spend a lot of money to find out whether one worked for me. I have used several stubs and left obliques that felt comfortable, and have never been too picky about whether I was following classic calligraphic technique, as long as I was getting good line variation.

 

Recently I saw on nibs.com that John has quite a few Parker 75 nibs for sale, including a #97, which Parker calls a broad reverse oblique, so I bought one to try in my 75. I never could get comfortable with it. No matter which way I rotated the nib, I couldn't seem to find the sweet spot, so I'm going to exchange it for a stub.

 

I would agree with everyone else that for your Nakaya you should get what feels comfortable for you without regard for the conventional wisdom. If you get interested in calligraphy, John sells a book on left-handed calligraphy by Vance Studley. I hope nibs.com will be at the DC show this year so I can try some of those Nakaya nibs for the first time.

[takkun]

This is rather odd, as I have ground more than a few of my own nibs and I can't for the life of me understand how a left-handed underwriter (I'm one) can use a right-footed oblique (I've tried one and the line variation I get is fairly odd). From my understanding, for a left-handed overwriter, a normal stub will do (same for the right-handed underwriter), whereas the right-footed oblique is theoretically used by a right-handed overwriter. This is barring any additional rotation done to the paper orientation - which is more or less unchanged.

 

Good to know I'm not the only one with this line of thinking--I was starting to go nuts. Again, my guess is the advice neither of us can decipher is not meant for stubs, just regular old ball-end nibs.

 

Today I got a nice package from Goulet, including a new 1.1 stub nib. I ground it down to a left foot, and I'm getting all the line variation I could want. I'll attach some photos if anyone's interested.

[Iollan]

Good to know I'm not the only one with this line of thinking--I was starting to go nuts. Again, my guess is the advice neither of us can decipher is not meant for stubs, just regular old ball-end nibs.

 

Today I got a nice package from Goulet, including a new 1.1 stub nib. I ground it down to a left foot, and I'm getting all the line variation I could want. I'll attach some photos if anyone's interested.

 

Indeed. With a right foot oblique (15 degrees), I was getting thin vertical strokes and thick horizontals, which seemed more like something I'd get with an architect point. Another guess is that the paper orientation would have been rotated sideways to make it work. Otherwise, the left-foot seems like the one for a left-handed underwriter.

[pajaro]

This has been an interesting read. I write left handed, and I under or over write as I feel like doing. I have left obliques and right obliques, and I find them uniformly annoying. It's hard to find a smooth writing spot with any of them. I have italics from Lamy, Parker, Esterbrook and Montblanc and stubs that give some line variation, but it looks like it works backwards for me. I have become somewhat bored with all of these, and I have come to enjoy extra fine nibs instead. They are round nibs, and it doesn't matter if I roll the nib around while I am writing. With the italics, stubs and obliques it matters, and they are less pleasant to write with.

 

With the Nakaya you should just jump in and try it. Writing is an individual performance thing. Because nibs can easily disappoint, I wouldn't waste much time or money on them.

 

I have taken a few pens with decent tipping and used a craft file to bring them down to a stubby shape and further worked on them to bring them to the point where there's line variation that works and stays smooth. The heck with the prepared nibs. I got a couple of nibs from nibs.com, a fine and an extra fine, and they are broad enough that they are targets for this tuning. So, faith in the nibmeister connection to reality has evaporated for me.