The Red equivalent of "American Blue"

[DennisU]

This thread is one of the classics!! I learn so much from the wonderful contributors to FPN. Thanks to Richard, Melnicki, and Latro21 and everyone else who commented for furthering my ink education!! Everyone here is just terrific!

Edited April 8, 2007 by DennisU

[Latro21]

QUOTE (Melnicki @ Apr 8 2007, 01:52 PM)

QUOTE (Latro21 @ Apr 8 2007, 04:58 AM) my vote goes to skrip red. its a straight up, no doubt about it, solid pure red. I should point out that the hunt for a Red equivalent of "American Blue" is not necessarily for a pure red, but rather for a red with ZAP! something that is saturated, shades well, can be used for mixing well, has visual depth, stands out on a page, but is not hideously offensive in its loudness. It should be something you notice in a glance and also something you can stare at in admiration, or fixation.   American Blue has all these qualities for the Blue range. But what about a red... Stay tuned, I have some ideas now from this thread and will report back soon! with that criteria, i still vote for skrip red. with different pens/nibs, and different writing, it changes color when dried. for example, from the same sheaffer viewpoint with fine italic, when writing in cursive, in my handwriting, the ink is unmistakably red, with some slight darkening of the outline of the writing, and hints of depth here and there. its not a 'punch you in the face and burn your eyes bright', but it definitely stands out on a page. however, when i print with the same pen and nib, the ink dries much darker, a bit less bright, but much more interesting. its by no means muted-the outline of the writing is much darker, but the interior stays bright, giving great visual interest. when you see this ink on paper, everything about it says BLOOD. not the dark, dried blood, but fresh, wet, sticky, hot blood. with the more one dimensional color with cursive from the fine italic viewpoint, it definitely catches your eye at a glance, and when printed with said pen, its definitely an ink i have stared at for quite a while, admiring the effects. depending on the characteristics of whatever you fill it with, your cursive color may be my printed color-it just depends on how much ink is allowed to soak into the paper.   i hear its also know to be a personal favorite among vampires.

[rattybad1]

Levenger Fireball is terrific. In fact it's my #1 favorite ink for grading. It's got a *wee* bit of orange in it and is very vibrant overall.

[Melnicki]

QUOTE (Latro21 @ Apr 8 2007, 08:33 PM)

when you see this ink on paper, everything about it says BLOOD. not the dark, dried blood, but fresh, wet, sticky, hot blood. (bold emphasis mine, MM.)

no, Dennis, THIS is classic.

[Melnicki]

So I received the paper copy of Dennis's Red comparison from earlier in this thread. Here are some thoughts:

 

Diamine Monaco Red looks like a less saturated red than Antietam. That was a surprise! I wanted this ink from other reports of it, but now I don't.

 

PR Fiesta Red has zap!! But it might be a bit too dark. Ottoman Rose also has zap! (but it's pinkish. I'd still call it a red, in the way that Antietam is still a red)

 

I'm not certain if PR Dakota Red has "zap" -- some parts of the sample made it look a lot like Waterman Red, which I think is a bit too flat, though bright. Dakota Red looks like it might have some nice depth in a wet pen, but might be rather light and plain in a dry pen. I'll report back when I test out the sample of it.

 

My Tiananmen does not look like it does here. Here Swishmix Burgundy and Tiananmen are very close to one another, but my SM Burg is a brick red (brownish), whereas my Tiananmen is rosier (and similar to other scans of Tiananmen on FPN, so perhaps Dennis's bottle is a batch-inconsistency?) (edit: no, his is fine. Tiananmen looks brick red with dip pens, but not when I load it in a fountain pen)

 

But the #1 striking thing (regarding the hunt for a red equivalent to American Blue) is that the winner (of this bunch) will be either Widowmaker or Sunset. Sunset has a bit of pink to it, but both are incredibly similar. Widowmaker is just a loud, strong and saturated red. Sunset is a bit deeper and more complex, as the scan shows. But it's really just a matter of preference, I think.

 

OTHER THOUGHTS: It appeared to me that Cayenne's color could easily be replicated by combining a red like Widowmaker with Habanero. The habanero is spot-on with mine. The Red-black looks more red and less brown than I've seen from Sonia_Simone's heavy use of that ink. Arabian Rose looks boring to me (it's middle of the road -- there are dustier and deeper versions of the same hue by many other inkmakers). PR Plum catches your eye, but it's not my sort of color. It's highly unique and rich, though.

 

Bottom line: Sunset, Widowmaker, Fiesta Red, and Ottoman Rose have the "zap!" I'm looking for.

 

I have samples of a few of these and will test them out and report back again, in a few days!

Edited April 27, 2007 by Melnicki

[Col]

QUOTE (Melnicki @ Apr 12 2007, 03:58 PM)

Monaco Red looks like a less saturated red than Antietam. That was a surprise! I wanted this ink from other reports of it, but now I don't.

I bought some Monaco Red recently, and was surprised and disappointed. It looks more like an orangey-brown colour to me.

 

QUOTE

Ottoman Rose also has zap! (but it's pinkish. I'd still call it a red

Ottoman Rose is a nice red. It does have a hint of pink about it, but it's only a hint, and it's darker than one might expect. I like it.

[lefty928]

QUOTE (Col @ Apr 12 2007, 02:46 PM)

QUOTE (Melnicki @ Apr 12 2007, 03:58 PM) Monaco Red looks like a less saturated red than Antietam. That was a surprise! I wanted this ink from other reports of it, but now I don't. I bought some Monaco Red recently, and was surprised and disappointed. It looks more like an orangey-brown colour to me. Thank you, Col! I saw Matt's post and thought about asking him if he meant that the color as well as the saturation is like Antietam. But then I studied Dennis's great scan and thought, nah... That will teach me. I'm so glad you commented, as I don't want yet another orangey-brown.   Does anyone know how Noodler's Devil Red compares against Widowmaker?     edited to correct typo

Edited April 12, 2007 by lefty928

[Melnicki]

here's a repost of a scan by DilettanteG including Devil Red..

 

Widowmaker's not on here, but I hear it is comparable to Rotring Red.

 

Since Devil Red is an eternal, though, I think it's safe to say it will definitely lack ZAP! I can't tell from the scan if the hue is similar, though.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Melnicki

[lefty928]

Thanks -- I'd seen earlier mentions of Devil Red, but that was before I saw the swatch in Greg Clark's Ink Sampler. It looks quite intense there, although of course it's laid on in a thick swash.

 

Apart from the Devil Red question, looking forward to seeing your report on the samples.

[Melnicki]

Okay, here we go... I've been squeezing in a bit of time every night to work on this comparison; many many thanks to DennisU for the samples. Mind you, many of the other suggestions by others are not included (eg Rattler Red, Fireball), but it is what it is. I've had fun. I'm not certain I can choose a favorite. This is round 1; round 2 will take much longer and will involve putting the ink into pens (okay, I promise to clean my pens beforehand!! I'd also like to do a water-test, just for fun. I also neglected to try this on copy-paper; oops.

 

The first is a comparison on three different papers (I get all my paper from two local "scrap warehouses" in SF and in Berkeley, usually old letterheads)... The left-most paper is unknown, kinda thick, greenish tint to it, some inks feathered, some didn't. The middle paper has a watermark that says "Beckett Cambric Writing"; it was a textured paper that feathered like hell, and bled through the back. Oh well. The third is a very nice Strathmore Writing 25% cotton that I love to write with, most inks behave incredibly well on it and even shade, and it was a letterhead from a software company named "Forte", with a neat light-blue pattern that you might be able to faintly notice underneat the last four samples. I'll post a few more images in subsequent posts.

[DennisU]

Nice work Melnicki!!! It is fascinating to see the effects of different paperstock.

 

I have to admit that I am surprised at how distinctive the Dakota Red looks. The Skrip Red looks like a strong contender!

 

Based on these initial results... which of these inks would you rule out of the running?? Care to comment?

[Melnicki]

Here are some more scans (I decided to go with FLICKR to prevent using up FPN's storage space.)

 

(1) on a very nice paper, says "concept" and a recycle sign in the watermark, tan speckled paper, behaves well with FPs

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/191/482871630_95cce53294_b.jpg

 

 

(2) on a cream unmarked paper, feels like copy paper but performs much better

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/220/482871634_de1afe8448_b.jpg

 

 

(3) on my favorite paper, a letterhead that only reads "EDAW" and has only an "e" as the watermark, looks a lot like the internet explorer "e".

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/482871638_e57c7d22aa_b.jpg

 

Everything was written with a Speedball C-6 reservoir dip nib.

 

Please excuse the prevalence of my quotes from science-fiction literature; it tends to predominate the quotebook I keep that I pulled them from!

 

PS > any admins reading this, posting these images has taken up so much of my time, since the FPN software upgrade. It used to be much easier to do, but now it's really difficult.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Melnicki

[DennisU]

Matt: Your comments in (1) above are priceless. Extremely useful. You've answered my questions. Thank you! Dennis

[Melnicki]

I neglected to write in (1)'s comments that Monaco Red shades the best of them all (WOW). Phthalo calls this "Edge-darkening". Indeed!

Monaco also looks eerily like Antietam.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Melnicki

[Melnicki]

Sorry Dennis, I missed your question at the top of the page, about which ones I would vote out:

 

Swishmix Burgundy was always out, I just put it up there for comparison.

 

Tiananmen is the only one that is definitely out. In a FP it will look redder, though.

 

Dakota and Skrip are so similar that I should have a preference of one vs the other. Dakota wrote REALLY well with a dip nib (where most inks usually have problems), but it might be too loud for me. If Skrip still looks that bold in a FP I would say it is still in the running (especially if it also shades like it did sometimes).

 

Antietam vs Monaco? Tough call. Antietam's out because it doesn't shade as nicely as Monaco, and in a dry pen Antietam is too orangey. Monaco might be out itself because it's a bit dark, though it has a merit of its own, being such an interesting ink.

 

So that leaves Widowmaker vs Sunset. Hmm... I don't know.

[MYU]

Thanks Dennis and Melnicki for all of your efforts on showing us these detailed ink comparisons! This is great stuff. I'm especially amazed at how much of a difference can be seen when using the same ink on different papers.

 

I'm a relative newbie when it comes to inks, and I'm learning all the time. My last "epiphany" was discovering Noodler's ink, with their incredibly impressive range of colors, ink quality, and availability of color variation with permanent inks. But I had not even considered the maintenance factor.

 

So when it comes to these permanent inks, you really want to avoid using them in pens with translucent or clear sections then? Or if you do use them, don't let the ink stay in for too long?