The Red equivalent of "American Blue"

[Melnicki]

Hey,

 

I recently got DC Supershow Blue. I caved in; wow-- it is so bright and bold and saturated. I know, I know, Levenger Cobalt and Penman Sapphire are also like this, but people are raving about DCSS and Amer.Blue these days. I don't like how these inks are not waterproof, but good luck finding an eternal-yet-vibrant ink in ANY color, unless you mix it yourself.

 

Hence, the need for a vibrant red. PR tends to have saturated inks, but I heard bad news about the operability of Dakota Red. Diamine Monaco Red has piqued my curiosity ever since I saw born t's handwriting with a homemade Monaco-Sepia mixture. But it's probably too dark an ink. I have Noodler's Tiananmen and it's also too dark for what I'm looking for. I would try Noodler's Red, but I think it might be too loud in terms of being a true red. I wasn't impressed with scans I saw of Penman Ruby (and I'll likely be challenged to find some, to boot), but the analogy of a "ruby" (yeah, that expensive polished rock) comes to mind when I think of the color I want.

 

But the best way to describe the color is indeed the Red equivalent of American Blue. Any other thoughts? Does Levenger Fireball have the drying/smearing problems of Cobalt? Any other suggestions? Maybe Noodler's Cayenne? (I have Habanero, love it in a wet pen, but have been reluctant to get Cayenne due to their similarity!) I also have Antietam (lovely color, but too rusty for a bold, deep, strong, full red), and SM Burgundy (too muted and mature!!!).

Edited April 7, 2007 by Melnicki

[DilettanteG]

I haven't tried Habenero, but Levenger's Fireball Red is almost more orange than red. Their Cardinal Red is closer to a true red than fireball. I think Noodler's Widowmaker is one of the best reds I've seen. J. Herbin's Rose is nice and the scent is lovely. Parker Quink red is another clear, true red, but lighter and less rich than some of the other two. If you want waterproof as well, I quite like Noodler's Swisher Waterproof Devil Red as well. It's not as vibrant as Widowmaker, but it doesn't have any pink overtones like the Luxury Red is reported to.

 

Hope that helps.

[Ann Finley]

Noodler's Devil Red. In non-waterproof, Sheaffer Slovenian Red.

 

To answer your question about Levenger's Fireball, I've not had a problem with it smearing. It is very much like Waterman's Red. These are two favorites of mine, but I agree that they lean just very slightly toward orange, where the Noodler's and Sheaffer's do not.

 

Best, Ann

[The Legend]

Hee Melnicki,

 

I can recommend Noodler's American Eel Rattler Red.

It is a bright red, saturated and comes most close to the American Blue experience.

 

You should also dive into the Christmas Red poll where all the reds were listed and some commented.

There the Private Reserve Dakota Red was favourite.

I have not tried it yet, but if you buy that and my Rattler recommendation above, you are close to your goal.

 

Rattler Red image attached.

 

Good Luck,

 

The Legend

[Melnicki]

QUOTE (The Legend @ Apr 7 2007, 05:48 AM)

I can recommend Noodler's American Eel Rattler Red.

That scan makes it a damn good contender. Is it different from Standard Red only because of the lubricating qualities, or is it its own ink?

 

I always thought Widowmaker was a bit more orangey, but it certainly looks bold! Here's a review of Widowmaker that I found. Wow, that's a loud red. Does it shade, though? I think that's one of the things that makes DCSS (etc) so nice when mixed.

 

I certainly have been curious about Devil Red. It is probably the Glacier Blue equivalent of the permanent Penman-esque mixes that were done recently, so excellently, by DennisU over here. But It seems that it would not be the vibrant component. Maybe Rattler Red is it?

 

I found a review of Swisher's Intense Red which has a name to suggest it would be "the one" but in the review, a comparison to Waterman Red shows the latter to be louder, and a comparison to Cayenne proves that it has the depth that AmBl/DCSS/PenSapph/Cobalt have but for the orange family.

 

Here's a review of the Skrip Red that Ann has harked about. (right? this is the slovenian one?) There are some interesting comments about reds on this thread, BTW.

 

Ottoman Rose looks like it has the shading and depth I want, but it's too dark, and too much on the magenta side.

 

Actually, looking at the scans of Widowmaker, Waterman Red, and Skrip Red kinda hurts my eyes...

 

I'm so bewildered.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Melnicki

[Phthalo]

I'd give Rohrer & Klingner 'Morinda' a shot. It instantly became my favourite red. Doesn't have the pop of Waterman Red - it's muted a fraction - but is still a strong, rich red. Being an R&K ink, it’s beautifully behaved.

 

I love Fireball, but it feathers, as most Levenger inks tend to do.

 

There are a few scans here, but they are a bit too intense. Let me know if you want me to photograph some writing with Morinda, and if you want a paper sample, I'm happy to send one - will take about 10 days though.

[DennisU]

When I posted by first "Ink Listing" a while ago, a comment was made that I sure liked blues. That was true at the time. But things have changed and my inventory is growing... fast! Maybe this scan will help this discussion. (Anything for my friend Melnicki!)

 

The samples were made with a fine italic dip nib and cotton swabs on the right. I've added some other reference colors for contrast at the bottom.

 

Scans just don't capture all the subtleties of these great inks. (Melnicki... I'm happy to snail this sample page to you if you want. Just email me.) I showed the original of this page to my wife and asked her to pick the truest red. She picked Waterman Red. I like Dakota Red.

 

In terms of standing out... knockout intensity like American Blue, I like Sunset and Widow Maker.

 

(Here is a link to another website that has a full size image of this scan. It is big!)

Edited April 7, 2007 by DennisU

[jd50ae]

Thank you.

[Johnson]

Dennis U is my ink hero. Your red and blue scans should be linked somewhere in the ink review database, totally awesome.

[DilettanteG]

Wow, that's a whole lotta red! Thanks Dennis.

Edited April 7, 2007 by DilettanteG

[Melnicki]

Laura, I have eyed that post of yours quite often, and even admired the two reds, but never advanced past it because I couldn't decide which I liked better. I was also distracted by the other beautiful colors you chose to order. I'm sure everyone is curious right now how Morinda compares to contenders like Dakota Red, Monaco Red, Waterman Red, Widowmaker, Noodler's Red.

 

DennisU: Wow, thanks. Sunset might be the one. I overlooked it because I was mentally thinking of a deep blazy orange... This could be my big chance/excuse to acquire one of those awesome inkbottles from Caran de Ache!!! None of the reds look like they have the shading that your sherwood green and south seas blue (at the bottom) have. Is that because you were using a dip pen? Tiananmen definitely looks too dark, although it has the necessary "zap" (I've found it to be flat and too rosy on cheap papers though). My craving for Monaco red, and my indecision between it and Dakota red, are a bit more advanced by your post!!

 

My biggest problem is going to be limiting myself to ONE red!!!

Edited April 7, 2007 by Melnicki

[DennisU]

QUOTE (Johnson @ Apr 7 2007, 03:33 PM)

Dennis U is my ink hero.

Many thanks for that! I think a better description might be ink madman!

 

QUOTE (Melnicki @ Apr 7 2007, 06:02 PM)

None of the reds look like they have the shading that your sherwood green and south seas blue (at the bottom) have. Is that because you were using a dip pen?

I think you're right about that... although the Sherwood Green and South Seas Blue are particularly wonderful for shading.

And yes... the Caran d'Ache bottles are incredible.

[MicheleB]

QUOTE (Johnson @ Apr 7 2007, 03:33 PM)

Dennis U is my ink hero.  Your red and blue scans should be linked somewhere in the ink review database, totally awesome.

Dennis is the best! This scan is super helpful!

 

If I may be so bold, I reco you avoid Pelikan Red - it is orange in my opinion and not even good for mixing. Waterman is a true standard red in my opinion and is oh so reliable. Diamine Monaco Red is my favorite dark red with lovely depth and shading and overall behaves well with many various nibs. Only shortcoming is it's a tad dry, but just a tad.

[Richard]

I'm always questing for the "best" of a given color, but as many of you know I limit myself to very few brands, avoiding inks I consider to be high in maintenance requirements. I favor Waterman and Diamine over all others, but I do let one or two "rogues" into the drawer.

 

I recently bought a bottle of Diamine Passion Red in the hope that it would be better than the best red I had hitherto used, Slovenian Skrip Red. The Passion Red has a good red color, lacking the slight orange cast of Waterman, but it isn't as intense as the Skrip.

 

Slovenian Skrip is a medium-maintenance ink; I'd prefer the low-maintenance characteristics of Diamine were it not that the Skrip is just so doggone RED. For me, therefore, the best red is still Slovenian Skrip Red. I use it in one pen, a fine-pointed Sheaffer Imperial Touchdown that is one of the two pens in a twin desk set at my bench. The other pen, a broad Imperial that I reground to a stub, is loaded with Diamine Woodland Green.

Edited April 7, 2007 by Richard

[JohnS-MI]

QUOTE (Melnicki @ Apr 6 2007, 10:48 PM)

Does Levenger Fireball have the drying/smearing problems of Cobalt? Any other suggestions?

I think Levenger Cardinal Red is closer to your "pure red." Fireball seems kind of orangey (although I've never used it). Cardinal Red is a great red and it does NOT smear like Cobalt Blue (I've used it too). It is not at all water resistant however.

[Latro21]

my vote goes to skrip red. its a straight up, no doubt about it, solid pure red.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Latro21

[DennisU]

QUOTE (Richard @ Apr 7 2007, 10:16 PM)

Slovenian Skrip is a medium-maintenance ink; I'd prefer the low-maintenance characteristics of Diamine were it not that the Skrip is just so doggone RED. For me, therefore, the best red is still Slovenian Skrip Red.

Good enough for me! Skrip Red will be in my next ink order. I assume Slovenian Skrip ink is the currently available Sheaffer Skrip ink.

 

Question: Could someone help me understand what makes an ink high- vs medium- vs low-maintenance? Is this related to actual damage to pens or nibs (like nib corrosion) or the chances for flow problems or something else?? Thanks!

Edited April 8, 2007 by DennisU

[Latro21]

QUOTE (DennisU @ Apr 8 2007, 09:02 AM)

Question: Could someone help me understand what makes an ink high- vs medium- vs low-maintenance? Is this related to actual damage to pens or nibs (like nib corrosion) or the chances for flow problems or something else?? Thanks!

staining, clogging/flow issues, corrosion, how easy it is to clean off the pen, how easy it is to flush, etc.

[Richard]

QUOTE (DennisU @ Apr 8 2007, 09:02 AM)

Could someone help me understand what makes an ink high- vs medium- vs low-maintenance?

Since I'm the primary perpetrator of the maintenance-level concept, I'll take a shot at explaining it.

 

Maintenance level is a composite score, so to speak, that reflects the amount of time and effort you have to put into using a particular ink. The composite is built on factors such as these:

• Flow. Inks that flow well score low because they don't make the pen fight back when you're trying to write with it.
• Staining. Inks that stain little or not at all score low because they don't make you disassemble and scrub out your visulated pens so you can see through them or polish the plating off your two-tone nibs trying to keep them bright. The color of a given ink affects its staining tendency; reds and other colors containing red dyes have a high tendency to stain, while blues -- especially washable ones -- stain little or not at all.
• Lubrication. Inks that lubricate well score low because they give you a smooth glide instead of making your nib feel dry and gritty so that you have to push harder.
• Clogging. Inks that don't clog score low because they don't make you disassemble your pen to floss the nib and feed. Typically, the more intensely saturated the color is, the higher are the dye load and the concomitant risk of clogging.
• Creepability. Inks that tend not to creep score low because they don't make you take out a tissue and wipe the nib to no avail every few minutes. This also reduces your stress level.

Obviously, the lowest score wins in the maintenance rankings.

 

Waterman inks were the first low-maintenance inks I discovered. Then along came Diamine, so that now I rely almost entirely on these two brands, the majority of whose colors sport very low maintenance scores. Their reds, as expected, have the highest scores; but these inks still score below other brands, lower even than other brands' blues and blacks.

 

On the high-maintenance end of the scale fall the really heavily saturated brands: Private Reserve, Levenger, and many Noodler's colors. The highest-maintenance of all, in my experience, are Noodler's bulletproof colors; these inks, although their dyes are in solution, contain suspended particulate matter (the stuff that makes them bond chemically with the paper), and they can have flow and clogging issues as well as a high creepability. The high creepability of Noodler's bulletproof inks results from the use of a greater amount of surfactant than normal in order to keep the particulates flowing well; in layman's terms, these inks are simply "wetter" than other inks.

 

Let it be clearly understood that the designation of a given ink as high maintenance (by me or by anyone else) should not be construed as a warning to avoid said ink. With proper care, including more frequent flushing, use in opaque pens only, adjustment of nibs for richer flow, etc., these inks are eminently usable. I particularly like a frightening number of the Noodler's colors, and I know from many personal chats with Nathan that his inks are as good as any out there -- in pens that like them.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Richard

[Melnicki]

QUOTE (Latro21 @ Apr 8 2007, 04:58 AM)

my vote goes to skrip red. its a straight up, no doubt about it, solid pure red.

I should point out that the hunt for a Red equivalent of "American Blue" is not necessarily for a pure red, but rather for a red with ZAP! something that is saturated, shades well, can be used for mixing well, has visual depth, stands out on a page, but is not hideously offensive in its loudness. It should be something you notice in a glance and also something you can stare at in admiration, or fixation.

 

American Blue has all these qualities for the Blue range. But what about a red... Stay tuned, I have some ideas now from this thread and will report back soon!