Ink Toxicity?

[NewPenMan]

Any one know about the danger from the amount of ink one gets handling, filling, cleaning, fountain pens?

 

Talking about ink on fingers. .

Edited April 11, 2015 by NewPenMan

[dcwaites]

There are far more dangerous things you can handle in the normal household than ink. Bleach, petrol, small cats (literally, think cat scratch disease), raw chicken, toilet cleaner, etc, etc, etc.

 

Some of the dyes in inks are actually used in food colouring and many of the rest are in textile dyes. So, you are either eating the dyes or wearing them.

 

I wouldn't worry about getting ink on your fingers.

 

Now, dropping ink on the good carpet, that's hazardous to your health...

[musicman123]

The only real component that could be a hazard would be the biocide inside the ink that prevent mold and fungi from growing. However, the concentration in the ink is very minuscule so you have almost nothing to worry about with normal usage.

 

I would not advocate drinking ink, or taking intravenous injections of ink as that CAN reek havoc on stuff.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

I agree that risk exposure seems quite low, and I've yet to see a hazard warning on FP ink or child-proof packaging.

 

I recall at one time the Pelikan site mentioned that their 4001 series inks were 'not to be taken as a source of nourishment' or some such wording.

 

That said, I reckon that common sense would have one set their inks beyond reach of geckos, children, cats and other curious critters.

 

Bye,

S1

[NewPenMan]

good to hear these comments, and yes, many far more hazardous items than fountain pen ink..Plutonium, as an example...benzene, as another..

 

however...

 

I can't help wonder whether there are ingredients, mystery or not, required to get this or that shade of a color, and which are toxic. I know that certain oil paints are well-known to be highly toxic. One would never consider eating oil paint, but the toxicity to humans of many substance seems not to require ingestion.

Edited April 11, 2015 by NewPenMan

[Davros]

Substances that are best able to cross the skin barrier are the ones most likely to be toxic when handled: that is, it soaks through the protective barriers to your bloodstream. These barriers consistent of a number of components, but are primarily skin and skin oils. The membrane of skin cells is essentially an oil as well. Oils tend to mix fairly easily compared to oil and water, so most "carriers" of toxic components tend to be oil-like (non-polar), so they can wick through your skin. In contrast, think about how water will bead on your hands or face, rather than soaking in.

 

I think it's fairly unlikely that any toxic dyes are in high enough concentrations to be worried about, but if they are, fountain pen inks are water-based. That means that a) the best dyes to use in fountain pen inks are water-soluble, exactly the sort of chemical composition that would reduce their odds of crossing the skin barrier, and b ) they're highly diluted in water, which is going to help them sit on the surface of your skin, repelled by your natural oils.

 

It's certainly possible to have a reaction to just about anything, but if we're talking real toxicity, affecting organs and whatnot, fountain pen inks are unlikely to have the right components in high enough amounts with the right carrier to have an effect. (Drinking is different; your GI tract is not made to repel substances like your skin.)

Edited April 11, 2015 by Davros

[dcwaites]

Hi,

 

I agree that risk exposure seems quite low, and I've yet to see a hazard warning on FP ink or child-proof packaging.

 

I recall at one time the Pelikan site mentioned that their 4001 series inks were 'not to be taken as a source of nourishment' or some such wording.

 

That said, I reckon that common sense would have one set their inks beyond reach of geckos, children, cats and other curious critters.

 

Bye,

S1

 

 

'nuff said

[jmccarty3]

NewPenMan,

 

As a dermatologist, I can confirm what Davros has told you. But, as we all know, you should never take anything that a doctor says at face value. As the politicians and journalists have told you, we are all incompetent liars and crooks. However, I will volunteer myself for the hazardous duty required to reassure you. Simply send me any inks about which you are concerned. I will use them and report any adverse effects to the group. The inks about which you should be most suspicious are the rare, hard-to-find ones, particularly from Japan and Poland. Ink makers in those countries do not have government regulators looking over their shoulders as Americans do, and there's no telling what noxious substances they might slip into their inks.

 

I am happy to perform this service at no charge to the FPN community. Just send me those inks, and try not to worry. I'm sure i will be OK.

 

[jasonchickerson]

Davros seems to know something about something. Although it is likely that phenol (a biocide) rather than any dye is the most harmful substance in any ink on the market today. Phenol is both polar and easily absorbed by the skin.

 

I would say, in the vast scheme of things, if you use chemical house cleaners such as glass cleaner, multi-surface cleaners, or toilet cleaners without gloves, you are likely absorbing much more harmful chemical than you will encounter from normal FP ink use.

 

That said, have you ever noticed that ink stains on fingers often disappear over night? That ink and any . While the dyes that make up most available inks are likely non-toxic today, daily staining your fingers with FP ink could provide enough exposure to phenol and other biocides to do harm to your liver and kidneys. Best to avoid excess exposure.

 

Also note that some ink makers use much less biocide in their inks than others. J. Herbin is known to contain very little if any phenol. Sailor and Noodler's inks are packed with the stuff.

[PS104]

I've given up drinking ink since it was revealed that it might contain gluten

As Hyman Roth said "your health is the most important thing"

[musicman123]

I've given up drinking ink since it was revealed that it might contain gluten

As Hyman Roth said "your health is the most important thing"

LMAO!!!!

[dcwaites]

As for phenol, under the name of carbolic we used to wash our babies and ourselves with it, in the form of carbolic soap.

 

While you're at it, you may as well take up drinking and smoking, going out in the sun, not going out in the sun, eating meat, not eating meat, crossing the road, etc, as they hazards they all pose will far outweigh the hazards of ink.

 

Moderation in all things, especially moderation.

 

Don't forget people, there is a 100% correlation between eating <insert breakfast cereal of your choice> and dying. At some stage.

[Frank C]

I wish I had been there to watch you drink the ink. I bet TSA was surprised....

Plistumityu2

Little bit of fluid on my mouth. Alas!

 

Here are some photos of FPN's own Plistumi consuming a bottle of Ackerman Voorhout Violet about two years ago after the LA Pen show. She is alive and well, although I did detect a slight violet hue in her irises the las time I saw her.

 

(Edited to remove extraneous material copied from the previous time this was posted.)

Edited April 12, 2015 by Frank C

[musicman123]

 

Plistumityu2

Little bit of fluid on my mouth. Alas!

 

Here are some photos of FPN's own Plistumi consuming a bottle of Ackerman Voorhout Violet about two years ago after the LA Pen show. She is alive and well, although I did detect a slight violet hue in her irises the las time I saw her.

 

(Edited to remove extraneous material copied from the previous time this was posted.)

 

THIS WORRIES ME EVERY TIME IT'S POSTED.

[jmccarty3]

If you're using Matador, Vampire, Fiesta Red, Widow Maker, Oxblood, or Red Dragon, just remember what they taught us on the first day of medical school:

 

All bleeding stops eventually.

[musicman123]

If you're using Matador, Vampire, Fiesta Red, Widow Maker, Oxblood, or Red Dragon, just remember what they taught us on the first day of medical school:

 

All bleeding stops eventually.

And some stop more permanently than others?

[NewPenMan]

Thank you for all the input and perspectives!

[dcwaites]

And some stop more permanently than others?

 

Didn't I see something on The Night Shift where they just pumped the blood coming out of someone back into him? A sort of perpetual auto-something transfusion.

[Sandy1]

 

 

'nuff said

 

Oh my!

 

Let's not combine Blue Ghost with moggies...

 

Bye,

S1

[El Gordo]

Back to some basics: ink is to be put in a fountain pen and used for writing on paper or whatever substrate, but not on skin, let be that is c/should be ingested. Ink is a mixture of chemicals. Use them with care, they should not end up on your fingers. Not the ones that are commercially available (where one could assume them being made by responsable manufacturers), definitely not the home-brew ones. If you pick up recipes from the internet or fora like this or even from government guidelines for making iron gall document inks, you are at your own regarding safety. Do not experiment with chemicals unprepared: if you make your own inks, the best would be to have a chemistry, pharmacy background or anywhere some affiliation with laboratory procedures and safety regulations. Or by self-education, in principle no problem, but if you if you brew your own inks without eye protection and other protective material, I do not consider you educated at all.

 

I know this did not start as something on making your own ink, but if people start considering phenol as a safe chemical it has to be noted that indeed it is used in carbolic soap and in inks at fairly low concentration. But extrapolating its assumed safety and bringing phenol in larger amounts (if you want to make your own inks for instance) is not wise, imagine a broken bottle and cleaning up the waste of a "safe" raw ingredient. Are you prepared? Do you now what to do if something unexpected happens? What if you get splashes in your eyes, on your skin? Need to be convinced? Have a Google search for images with "phenol" and "burns".

 

Is it that bad with inks: no, there is a concentration effect as well. About dyes: "most inks are based on textile dyes, so they should be safe as textile contacts the skin". Fountain pen inks are not used as textile dyes, they can use the same compounds, they could also use others (anyone some regulatory requirements for fountain inks somewhere US or elsewhere? Why should a regulation on textile dyeing apply on fountain pen inks?). Azo dyes come in many flavors, some are considered toxic, others not, carcinogenic properties might be an issue as well. And under illumination chemical bonds might be broken, discoloration can occur, converting a non-toxic ingredient into a toxic one (or vica versa). MSDSs seem rather hard to find (I am only aware of De Atramentis having them on there website after registration I think, but I admit not having searched others, only was glad to know that it is available if needed).

 

If jmccarty is happy to perform some analysis at no charge to the FPN community, that sounds like a very generous offer, may I suggest to come to a motivated consensus on a few inks, given the vast amount of inks available ...

 

As a summary, please don't feel frightened to use or make ink. I feel very comfortable and safe doing it myself. And there might be far more dangerous things like mixing toilet cleaner with bleach that we all know of not to do (probably as a warning on the bottles, if you read them). But hey, ink is to be put on paper, not on your fingers, try to avoid is at much as possible. It are chemicals. Did not want to scare anyone about home-brew ink making either, but if you enjoy your hobby do it safely and well educated about the risks and prepare for accidents before they occur.

 

Happy inking

 

BTW see also the thread on Ink safety started by shufen, Nov 11 2007 15:49, hasa lot of relevant replies.

Edited April 12, 2015 by El Gordo