Winsor & Newton Calligraphy Ink

[kudzu]

I live in a small town with limited access to pen-related products, so when I find something, I usually buy it. I ran across some bottles of Winsor & Newton Calligraphy Ink that says "For Fountain & Dip Pens". I've heard that calligraphy ink should not be used in fountain pens, but this ink is saying it's okay. I bought 2 bottles of this ink, but decided I should pose the question here before actually using it in some of my vintage pens. Should I, or shouldn't I?

[JimStrutton]

I would not use the ink in a vintage FP. In the store that sells it locally, they sell some cheap calligraphy fountain pens that they say it can be used with. But the owner of the store did admit that they issue warnings about thoroughly flushing the pen out after every use.

 

So use a cheap FP and flush or use a dip pen. Simple rule, Vintage Pen, Vintage type ink, ie Waterman, Quink, Diamine etc.

 

Jim

[Ged]

I wouldn't use the W & N inks in an FP, especially the metallic colored ones. I'm pretty sure they use ground pigments that will clog an FP in short order. As the Greasy Hooded One suggests, try a cheap FP you don't mind garbaging, and let us know!

 

I have a bottle of Higgins Engrossing, thats like a syrup almost, and definately not safe for FP's, the bottle and packaging says it's for FP's too. I think not! It's a waterproof ink like Indian Inks are. It'll dry up in the feed and clog clog clog! It is not resoluble in water. Not to mention I'll be suprised if it comes out of the nib fine and not just a globby mess.

 

Moral of my ramblings: Don't trust the packaging if you're in doubt FP inks should be dye based, not ground pigment or carbon based.

 

As an aside, waterprook FP safe inks like some Noodler's are formulated for FP's, they're a somewhat different story!

[kudzu]

Ok, that settles it. Two bottles of Winsor & Newton Calligraphy Ink bought for naught. Thanks for saving my old pens. I ordered some Private Reserve and Waterman ink online 2 days ago, but hate to wait until they arrive. [patience...deep breaths]

[krz]

I've got a handfull of Rotring Cores (cheap dedicated art pens) I use the the "blue cap" W & N inks in with no problem (2 years now). Flush often.

 

I won't use it in ANY of my vintage or expensive pens. Do NOT run the "red cap" W & N inks in anything but a dip pen.

[caliken]

Thanks for asking this question!

I am in exactly the same situation - but I have 21 unopened bottles!

I bought them specifically for fountain pens, but I haven't been able to bring myself to use them, just in case.....

The above answers all say "no" and yet - W & N is a very reputable Company

with a long history of quality in art materials !!!!

 

Ken

[tjwarren]

I was curious about this when I first started penning, so I e-mailed the company.

 

 

From the horses mouth:

QUOTE

Hi Timothy, Thank you for your inquiry regarding the Winsor & Newton Calligraphy inks, and thank you also for your commitment to our products. I think it would be safest for you to avoid putting the calligraphy inks in your Rotring fountain pen - you would be running the risk of clogging it.  Probably it would be best to stick to using the dip pens. Thanks again Timothy, and best wishes, Amy Faris Technical Advisor

[DilettanteG]

Thanks for the info. 'The horse's mouth' is pretty definitive.

 

Aren't the general rules:

 

1- Calligraphy inks that contain shellac should only be used in dip pens

 

 

2- Never puy anything that isn't water based in your fountain pen

 

 

3-Never put any ink with noticible solid particles (metallics,etc.) in your Fountain Pen

Edited April 5, 2007 by DilettanteG

[kudzu]

The general rules sound good. My problem was that the Winsor & Newton Calligraphy ink bottle says on the label "FOR FOUNTAIN & DIP PENS". There's no indication that there could be shellac in the formulation either, nor can I see solid particles (having bought the blue lidded, non-metallic inks). So, I'm glad I asked the question.

 

Thanks for all the helpful replies.

[jsonewald]

The other big clues for not using the ink in a standard fountain pen are the words "pigmented" and "acrylic". Also , if you pick up a bottle and can tell that it must be be shaken, that is there is a clear settling of pigment, then don't put it in a regular fountain pen.

[inkysmudges]

In my experience the whole calligraphy ink question is a pretty muddy one. While I completely agree with the "don't let it near you oldest and dearest" rule I think that, given the opportunity a little experimentation can be _very_ worthwhile.

 

Let me elaborate a bit: I'm learning to draw, (for personal reasons) I've chosen to work only with waterproof inks and I like fountain pens. Naturally I want to draw with fountain pens using waterproof inks. Hmmm, not that many of them around when you first look at it but ...

 

What about those great inks for technical pens? Things like the Kohinoor Ultradraw and Universal inks. I love those inks in my tech pens, sure wish I could use them in my fountain pens.

 

Well there's two things that might be of use to you. First thing is the Rotring Artpen, I'm using the "Sketch" version which comes in F and EF. The Rotring Artpens can be completely disassembled in about 10 seconds and they're cheap enough ( <$20) that you can buy two: use one and have one in the rinse, every few days swap them and you're good to go with a much wider variety of inks. You guessed it: I'm happily using the Ultradraw and Universal inks and loving it.

 

The thing about there being shellac in many calligraphy and tech pen inks is very true and potentially bothersome but -- and this would be thing two -- shellac will readily dissolve in alcohol. I've tested this by intentionally letting an Artpen inked with Kohinoor Universal (a shellac-based india ink) to sit on the desk uncapped for a week. Needless to say it was a mess and acted like it would never write again. Overnight in a wee jar of alcohol (ethyl alcohol is best, it's often sold in hardware stores as "shellac thinner") and the thing was ready to go again. (EDIT: Please note that I've changed my tune on this since. The short story is that Kohinoor Rapido-Eze cleaner is much safer and more effective. See this post further down in the thread for details. For the most part I have discontinued my use of alcohol on my pens.)

 

Based on these successes I've been running the Ultradraw and Universal inks in my Lamy Safaris too for several weeks now. I do notice that the semi-dried ink tends to gunk up the pen after a week or so but fortunately it's pretty easy to pop the nibs on the Safaris and give them a nice cleaning. Again, a little bath in the alcohol (EDIT: again, Rapido-Eze is much better and safer) once a week or so seems to keep things running quite smoothly. And again, the pens are cheap enough that you can have one soaking while you're using the other.

 

Other experiments like this have yielded some successes (Winsor & Newton) and some failures (J. Herbin) but the moral of the story stands IMHO: get something like an Artpen (best) or Safari (also good), buy a little alcohol and give it a try. You might find yourself with a workable combination using a favourite ink and speaking from experience, that's a pretty sweet thing.

 

Having said all of that I'd never put these "trouble" inks in my Pelican m800 or anything that I couldn't either disassemble or throw away. That's what Noodler's (and a few others) was made for and that's going to be my next step in the fountain-pen-with-waterproof-ink adventure.

Edited May 3, 2007 by inkysmudges

[CD7]

Sounds cool Inky.

How are those Kohinoor Ultradraw and Universal inks?

Waterproof?

Ever tried doing a bit of watercolor over them?

[inkysmudges]

Yup, both are waterproof. Ultradraw fades the slightest amount if fully submerged in water for 20-ish mins but it's less than a 5% fade or so. I haven't done watercolors over them but I have done ink wash: no visible effect.

 

There's another Kohinoor ink called Trans-Mix which sounds promising too though I haven't tried it yet. It's billed as "mixable, archival, and waterproof" and comes in about 20 colors. Check it out at DickBlick.com. As with the others it's said to be suitable for tech pens so there's no guarantee that our FPs will like it. I'll post back here once I've run a couple colors through my Artpens and/or Safaris.

[krz]

I use the Trans-Mix in my tech pens. It's got to be shellac or acrylic based so I wouldn't try it in a fountain pen.

[inkysmudges]

Good call krz, I forgot about the acrylic issue. I checked the MSDS at Blick and indeed, Trans-Mix is an acrylic based ink.

 

While I'd have no hesitation is using a shellac based inks in my Artpens (see above) I'm not so sure about the acrylics.

 

Unlike the shellac based inks where simple ethyl alcohol (EDIT: Again, Rapido-Eze is much safer and more effective. See here for details.) does a spiffy clean-up job I have no idea what solvent one would use to clean up acrylic clogged nibs and feeders. Sigh, sounded so promising.

 

UPDATE: went searching the web for more on this topic and found (second hand info) that Rotring customer service has recommended the Trans-Mix inks for use in the Artpens. This info is a couple years old.

 

AND AGAIN: re: watercolors. Found this over at WetCanvas (dated 2003):

"Almost all my ink work is mixed media. I combine with watercolor. The Universal will blend out quite a bit with a watercolor or water wash applied over it. The UltraDraw is not much better. If you need a true waterproof ink from Koh-I-Noor, the TransMix is what you need."

Edited May 3, 2007 by inkysmudges

[inkysmudges]

(A bit off topic I'm afraid)

 

I think I may have found the reason for the discrepancy between my experience with the waterproofness of the Kohinoor inks and that cited by the WetCanvas writer: abrasion. To make a long story short I think it's got to do with how much you rub the ink when you're applying your water based colors afterward.

 

In a simple test I wrote samples of all the Kohinoor inks on a piece of paper, let it sit for an hour and then submerged the sample in tap water for 15 minutes. None of the inks bled or ran, they all appeared quite stable and permanent.

 

Once I had taken the sample sheet out of the water and let it drip off for a minute or two I laid the sheet flat on a table and ran my finger lightly over each, enough pressure to push the moisture on the surface around but not enough to distort the swollen fibers of the paper: all the inks smeared noticeably, but the TransMix smeared the least.

 

Next I'm going to repeat the process but let the ink samples sit overnight before I do the water test.

Edited April 11, 2007 by inkysmudges

[Anne-Sophie]

Brrrr inkysmudges is scaring me.

 

I think your way of doing things is pretty daring!

 

And I'm sure you would laugh very hard if you saw how I baby my pens, including my Safaris.

 

So far only Waterman, Herbin and one non waterproof Noodler has ever been close to my pens.

[CD7]

Hey, it's for ART!

Besides, those art pens are around $18.

What the hey.

I'm curious about Dr. Ph. Martins Tech ink if you run across some of that Inky.

I came across a webpage where a cartoonist was using that in a Pelikan (120 or 150 I think).

[inkysmudges]

So far only Waterman, Herbin and one non waterproof Noodler has ever been close to my pens.

Don't get me wrong A-S, I don't do such things with my Pelikan m800 or any of my other "big" pens. But for the Artpens, and even the Safaris, I figure "let them take me where they can go". There are some wonderful inks out there that we normally can't use with our FPs. If the Artpens and/or Safaris can handle them I say "fill 'er up!".

 

FWIW, I always start an ink experiment with the Artpen. If it all goes pear-shaped then it only takes about 10 seconds to completely disassemble the thing and give it a good wash. If everything looks peachy with the Artpen for a week or so then I'll consider trying it out on the Safaris.

 

CD7: I'll see if I can track down some of that Dr. Ph. Martins Tech stuff and give it a go. I'm always game for trying a new ink.

Edited May 3, 2007 by inkysmudges

[inkysmudges]

QUOTE (inkysmudges @ Apr 11 2007, 09:56 AM)

Next I'm going to repeat the process but let the ink samples sit overnight before I do the water test.

Ok, still off-topic, but here's the test results. The sample was written, sat overnight, soaked for 1 hour (tap water), and then placed on a kleenex. I used the black squares on the right for the smear test (look at the upper right corner of the black box).

 

Observations:

 

- as you can see these inks all behaved pretty well, well enough I'd say to call them all "waterproof".

 

- it's not immediately obvious but the Universal did wash out a little bit (most noticeable in the "Universal' text and the cross-hatching).

 

- overall, the Trans-Mix seems to have been the least affected by the water test.

 

- none of them smeared a lot, but they all smeared a little.