White Ink On Black Paper

[Alexcat]

I have some black paper, and would like to write out some favourite poems, in white.....I know that it's a no no for fountain pens, but I have a couple of dip pens....

 

Any suggestions for the whitest white ink on black paper?

 

Alex

 

PS I have heard of Noodlers White Whale, but am in UK

[rafapa]

It seems De Atramentis is developing a white waterproof fountain pen friendly ink.

http://janeblundellart.blogspot.com.es/2014/11/mixing-document-inks.html

[Randal6393]

Since even the best white inks are somewhat transparent, in my experience, would suggest using white gouache. Mixes well with a bit of water, the acrylic ones dry waterproof. Penmen recommended gouache for a long while now.

 

Best of luck,

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

+1 for gouache. I find it can take a bit of fiddling & fussing to get the application even, though that is likely due to my inept handling rather than the media itself.

 

Also consider Staedtler Mars Universal White 3080-F Rapidograph ink, which is said to work in the Pilot Parallel pen and water brushes. I've yet to take that one for a whirl.

 

There's been a few other Topics about White ink, so you may choose to give those a wee shufti.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited February 17, 2015 by Sandy1

[Algester]

Dr. Ph martin for your calligraphy needs that bleedproof white...

[Axial]

"It seems De Atramentis is developing a white waterproof fountain pen friendly ink."

 

Unlikely. As I said in a couple of previous discussions, white iink suitable for normal fountain pens may be physically impossible to make. Unlike the pigmented nanoparticle inks which have coloured particles, white is not a colour that a molecule can have. All white liquids are colloid suspensions (emulsions or otherwise) of fairly large light-reflecting particles. Opaque white liquids must _reflect_ light and thus must contain non-light absorbing particles larger in diameter than the wavelength of visible light (several hundred nanometres) which is more than 20 times in diameter - and more than 8000 times in volume - than pigmented nanoparticles in e.g. Sailor inks. Particles of that size will unfortunately clog normal fountain pens.


"PS I have heard of Noodlers White Whale, but am in UK"

It is not a white ink. It is a transparent ink for mixing with other inks, and softening their colour.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Axial

[rafapa]

"It seems De Atramentis is developing a white waterproof fountain pen friendly ink."

 

Unlikely. As I said in a couple of previous discussions, white iink suitable for normal fountain pens may be physically impossible to make. Unlike the pigmented nanoparticle inks which have coloured particles, white is not a colour that a molecule can have. All white liquids are colloid suspensions (emulsions or otherwise) of fairly large light-reflecting particles. Opaque white liquids must _reflect_ light and thus must contain non-light absorbing particles larger in diameter than the wavelength of visible light (several hundred nanometres) which is more than 20 times in diameter - and more than 8000 times in volume - than pigmented nanoparticles in e.g. Sailor inks. Particles of that size will unfortunately clog normal fountain pens.

 

 

"PS I have heard of Noodlers White Whale, but am in UK"

 

It is not a white ink. It is a transparent ink for mixing with other inks, and softening their colour.

I found the mention to a white ink at

http://janeblundellart.blogspot.com.es/2014/11/mixing-document-inks.html

[torstar]

Liquid paper?

[Alexcat]

I think it's time to try out my dip pen...have one which holds a fair amount at a time.

 

Alex

[amberleadavis]

I really love gel pens on black paper. I will brace myself for the ridicule.

[Sandy1]

"It seems De Atramentis is developing a white waterproof fountain pen friendly ink."

 

Unlikely. As I said in a couple of previous discussions, white iink suitable for normal fountain pens may be physically impossible to make. Unlike the pigmented nanoparticle inks which have coloured particles, white is not a colour that a molecule can have. All white liquids are colloid suspensions (emulsions or otherwise) of fairly large light-reflecting particles. Opaque white liquids must _reflect_ light and thus must contain non-light absorbing particles larger in diameter than the wavelength of visible light (several hundred nanometres) which is more than 20 times in diameter - and more than 8000 times in volume - than pigmented nanoparticles in e.g. Sailor inks. Particles of that size will unfortunately clog normal fountain pens.

 

 

"PS I have heard of Noodlers White Whale, but am in UK"

 

It is not a white ink. It is a transparent ink for mixing with other inks, and softening their colour.

 

Hi,

 

I learned never to underestimate a Chemist who has skills and imagination.

 

Should we see an FP friendly White ink with good opacity come to market, it will be a leap forward, but of less magnitude than a moon shot.

 

Bye,

S1

[Skyppere]

"It seems De Atramentis is developing a white waterproof fountain pen friendly ink."

 

Unlikely. As I said in a couple of previous discussions, white iink suitable for normal fountain pens may be physically impossible to make. Unlike the pigmented nanoparticle inks which have coloured particles, white is not a colour that a molecule can have. All white liquids are colloid suspensions (emulsions or otherwise) of fairly large light-reflecting particles. Opaque white liquids must _reflect_ light and thus must contain non-light absorbing particles larger in diameter than the wavelength of visible light (several hundred nanometres) which is more than 20 times in diameter - and more than 8000 times in volume - than pigmented nanoparticles in e.g. Sailor inks. Particles of that size will unfortunately clog normal fountain pens.

 

 

"PS I have heard of Noodlers White Whale, but am in UK"

 

It is not a white ink. It is a transparent ink for mixing with other inks, and softening their colour.

Thanks for this informative posting!

[chewytulip]

I really love gel pens on black paper. I will brace myself for the ridicule.

No ridicule, just agreement. Use the tool that works best for the task at hand - and if your task was meant to be fast and easy (for instance, not spending the time to learn how to mix gouache paint properly), then a white gel pen is quite helpful. May I suggest the uniball signo? If I remember correctly, I bought it at jetpens.

[Inkysloth]

For dip pens, Bleedproof White (as mentioned above) is very good.

 

Dr PH Martins is one brand, Daler-Rowney also make it. It can be hard to find in art shops (at least I tried 4 - including the marvellous Cornellisens - before finding some in London Graphic Centre off Seven Dials.

 

Bleedproof white is very very thick, so needs thinning down a little, but it seems easier to mix than gouache.

[amberleadavis]

No ridicule, just agreement. Use the tool that works best for the task at hand - and if your task was meant to be fast and easy (for instance, not spending the time to learn how to mix gouache paint properly), then a white gel pen is quite helpful. May I suggest the uniball signo? If I remember correctly, I bought it at jetpens.

 

Yes, I do like this one a lot.

 

http://static.jetpens.com/images/a/000/000/412.jpg

[Alexcat]

No ridicule, just agreement. Use the tool that works best for the task at hand - and if your task was meant to be fast and easy (for instance, not spending the time to learn how to mix gouache paint properly), then a white gel pen is quite helpful. May I suggest the uniball signo? If I remember correctly, I bought it at jetpens.

I am such a daftie.....I have one of those! Had it for ages, forgotten about it, grabbed after reading this, thinking it would be all dried up and 'orrible, and it's exactly what Im after.

 

Thanks all.

 

Alex

[Axial]

 

Hi,

 

I learned never to underestimate a Chemist who has skills and imagination.

 

Should we see an FP friendly White ink with good opacity come to market, it will be a leap forward, but of less magnitude than a moon shot.

 

Bye,

S1

Why stop at white FP ink? Why not a stone that turns lead into gold?

 

I am a chemist (a biochemist, but still). If you want a white liquid, there is neither known nor imaginable way to obtain it without suspending particles in it that are too big to be safe for FP. If you make the particles smaller, you lose the colour. It is not lack of imagination, it is simple laws of optics. (e.g. Cult Pens has this information at http://www.cultpens.com/c/q/explore/ink-colour/white-ink-pens .)

 

What could be possible in principle is a clear liquid that dries into white precipitate (like e.g. hard water stains). That would have to be 1) very concentrated (to provide enough opacity upon drying) which means the substance would have to be highly soluble in water and 2) it shouldn't penetrate the paper too much for the opaque layer to be thick enough upon drying. 1) and 2) are, unfortunately, conflicting requirements - highly soluble substances are by necessity hydrophilic and would be absorbed into the depths of cellulose fibres together with water in which they are dissolved.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Axial

[Sandy1]

Why stop at white FP ink? Why not a stone that turns lead into gold?

 

I am a chemist (a biochemist, but still). If you want a white liquid, there is neither known nor imaginable way to obtain it without suspending particles in it that are too big to be safe for FP. If you make the particles smaller, you lose the colour. It is not lack of imagination, it is simple laws of optics. (e.g. Cult Pens has this information at http://www.cultpens.com/c/q/explore/ink-colour/white-ink-pens .)

 

What could be possible in principle is a clear liquid that dries into white precipitate (like e.g. hard water stains). That would have to be 1) very concentrated (to provide enough opacity upon drying) which means the substance would have to be highly soluble in water and 2) it shouldn't penetrate the paper too much for the opaque layer to be thick enough upon drying. 1) and 2) are, unfortunately, conflicting requirements - highly soluble substances are by necessity hydrophilic and would be absorbed into the depths of cellulose fibres together with water in which they are dissolved.

 

Hi,

 

Many thanks for your further explanation of the challenges facing those in pursuit of an FP-friendly White ink.

 

My hunch is that such an 'ink' would have some reactive properties, perhaps to both the Black dye and to the cellulose of the paper. But as the Chemists at work tell me, "Sandy, you're not a Chemist - get out of our lab."

 

So I wait with fingers crossed in a state of blonde optimism to see what comes. What if rather than White ink, a Pink ink for Black paper comes to market?

 

Bye,

S1

[Axial]

 

So I wait with fingers crossed in a state of blonde optimism to see what comes. What if rather than White ink, a Pink ink for Black paper comes to market?

 

 

You would still need the same kind of opaque particles as in white. Without opacity the light gets right through and gets absorbed by the black paper. In the case of white paper, the paper itself reflects light and returns to your eyes everything except the part of the spectrum absorbed by the dye. Black paper, on the other hand, absorbs all the light that hasn't been absorbed by the dye, reflecting nothing for you to see. To be visible on black paper, the particles in ink itself should do the reflection. And they again have to be big to do it.

[Inkysloth]

By way of demonstration, this is bleed-proof white on black mountboard, thinned with water so I could write with a dip-pen.

 

Bleed-proof white on black by Inkysloth, on Flickr