Glitterati/pearl/mica And E415?

[Intellidepth]

Today's notes including ink formula (the concentrate is as per post #38 Exp 6, which is currently in my fridge).

Edit: yes the paper's white, Rhodia Orange pad; no, I don't know how to do white balancing on my ipad

Edited February 9, 2015 by Intellidepth

[JustWrite Pen Company]

There is another direction you could take with this.

 

We tried a range of gelling agents in an attempt to make a concentrated ink gel but every one we tried eventually clogged pens even at the very low concentrations after the gel was mixed with water to create a normal liquid ink. The same properties that induce the gelling effect in the concentrate operate inside the fountain pen regardless of dilution, to create small lumps of gel which clog the pen.

 

Instead of using hydrocolloids to keep particles in suspension you could try experimenting with glycol distearate in an oil / water emulsion. Glycol Disterate is used to give a pearlescent effect you often see in some hand washes, bath gels and shampoos. Glycol distearate is not soluble in water so you need to dissolve it in oil then make a water / oil emulsion. I suspect an emulsion would be more stable than a suspension and more suitable for use in a fountain pen.

 

You would need a suitable oil to dissolve the glycol distearate and a suitable emulsifier to disperse the glycol disterate oil solution in water. Cosmetic suppliers would have everything you need.

 

Glycol Distearate in Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycol_distearate

 

Here is an article about emulsions:

http://www.aocs.org/Membership/FreeCover.cfm?ItemNumber=19406

 

Here is an article on glycol distearate in oil / water emulsions:

https://www.u-picardie.fr/~LaboLMCAO/pages-perso/publis_CC/COGNE_04.pdf

 

 

In green ink it should look something like this:

 

 

[Cyber6]

In green ink it should look something like this:

 

 

WOW!!! ... that looks really interesting... The pearlescent look is something I never associated with fountain pen ink. Very interesting indeed...

 

 

C.

[Intellidepth]

Kevin, thanks so much for dropping in and for the novel idea! Really appreciate it.

 

I'll watch for clumps. Looks like this might be ok for short term use then, just not long term.

 

I think the mix in vial might be fine, but the use in pen should best be limited from what I'm observing so far (dry starts annoy me, but think it'll be easily remedied with either a dip in the same colour plain ink, or water).

 

Dry start this morning, but not too bad. 12 hours in pen, cap on.

12 hour settlement of the large particles, as per prior experiments. Base of 6 mL vial with 20x loupe.

Top of 6mL vial showing continued suspension of the smaller particles, with 20x loupe.

[amberleadavis]

Thanks Kevin - Can we have Alien Slime ink too? I like it.

 

Intellidepth, keep up the glitter works!

[TheRealScubaSteve]

Looking good. My inks are solid gold on the bottom. Ink color would be a total surprise.

[Intellidepth]

Done a few repeat tests using the same ink in the same pen to check drying out performance. These tests were all cap-on, as that's normal storage. Think I didn't add quite enough xanthan to this little vial as I have partial settlement (large particles) covering base surface of vial in a thin layer, and partial settlement (large particles) in the pen but it mixes in and stays suspended with a few rolls/twists or gentle shakes of the pen.

 

Large particles at base of vial:

 

Usual smaller particle suspension throughout the rest of the vial. Top half of vial, side view:

 

Bottom half of vial, side view:

 

As you can see, the large particles only are in the fine layer on the bottom.

 

Now, in the pen, it looked quite different - much more obvious, enough to make me think that I hadn't used enough xanthan. Pen had been laying on its side for storage (my usual).

[Intellidepth]

The Noodler's Konrad Acrylic had a dry start after 12 hours with the above ink mix in the pen and started without a piston twist to release ink. Needed a small piston start after both 48 hours and 57 hours (separate tests, same ink, same pen). Consistent distribution of the luster particles throughout the writing experience still, even after writing a complete page while flexing each letter.

 

Also tried it in a new dip nib that arrived this week. Top text is my print with the Konrad, the word 'nib' is with an Aikin Lambert dip nib.

 

Dip nib again. Laydown of luster is pretty obvious and very heavy. (Apols for lack of focus - I was avoiding kids trampolining right near me at the time!).

[Intellidepth]

None of my pics under 20x loupe picked up evidence of crystallisation on the nib or feed for any of these ink dehydration tests (I couldn't see any using my eye through the loupe either).

 

No doubt crystallisation has occurred based on the earlier fork tests I photographed, however bear in mind that for the fork test there were 2mm blobs of mixture that were dehydrated down on the fork tines to get even that tiny amount of crystallisation.

 

Here are pics of the feed and nib anyway after dehydration, as some of you may wonder how much dried down in the channels.

[Intellidepth]

I'm a bit over testing at the moment, so here's my opinion so far.

(Actually, its the photographic manipulation that's driving me nuts - 7 steps per photo!)

 

1. Adding xanthan for even luster distribution *works for short term use*. Even after large particle settlement at 12 hours, a few twists/rolls/gentle shakes of the pen redistributes it again evenly, keeps it suspended while writing, and ensures even distribution.

 

2. I would mix a batch (many different batches!) and happily keep it in the vial until needed.

 

3. I can't be bothered with the dry starts after dehydration, so would freshly fill a pen, use it for the day, then empty my pen back into the vial and flush-clean the pen as a matter of course.

 

4. Normal cleaning for my Konrad Acrylic piston filler removed the luster along with the ink.

 

5. Don't bother putting luster in inks like Noodler's Bulletproof Black, as there's something particle-sized that blocks the light from reflecting. Noodler's Yellow, Navajo Turquoise, and Shah's Rose are all great with luster.

 

6. Xanthan hasn't killed my pen and I doubt it will, but feel free to laugh with me if that day comes. I would not put it in any pen I could not dismantle and flush clean easily.

 

7. Xanthan behaves very differently from most other polysaccharides, some of which will irreversibly gel at normal room/car temperatures, so please don't generalise this testing out to other polysaccharides!

 

8. No SITB in my Exp 5 which is *still* on my bench. So I'll worry about it if and when I see it.

 

9. There seems to be overall graduated settlement happening now in that Exp 5 jug. It hasn't been touched for weeks and now has a clear-ish portion at the top (with miniscule luster particles), with evenly graduated and increasing particle sizes as I look from the top zone down towards the bottom of the jug (which contains around 200mL). A brief stir and it's all suspended again.

 

My son is apparently starving and needs filling....

 

Edit: The Exp 5 jug rinsed clean with 2 fills of water. No luster left behind.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Intellidepth

[amberleadavis]

Thank you for the great experiment. BTW, children require constant refilling.

[WirsPlm]

I'm a bit over testing at the moment, so here's my opinion so far.

(Actually, its the photographic manipulation that's driving me nuts - 7 steps per photo!)

 

1. Adding xanthan for even luster distribution *works for short term use*. Even after large particle settlement at 12 hours, a few twists/rolls/gentle shakes of the pen redistributes it again evenly, keeps it suspended while writing, and ensures even distribution.

 

2. I would mix a batch (many different batches!) and happily keep it in the vial until needed.

 

3. I can't be bothered with the dry starts after dehydration, so would freshly fill a pen, use it for the day, then empty my pen back into the vial and flush-clean the pen as a matter of course.

 

4. Normal cleaning for my Konrad Acrylic piston filler removed the luster along with the ink.

 

5. Don't bother putting luster in inks like Noodler's Bulletproof Black, as there's something particle-sized that blocks the light from reflecting. Noodler's Yellow, Navajo Turquoise, and Shah's Rose are all great with luster.

 

6. Xanthan hasn't killed my pen and I doubt it will, but feel free to laugh with me if that day comes. I would not put it in any pen I could not dismantle and flush clean easily.

 

7. Xanthan behaves very differently from most other polysaccharides, some of which will irreversibly gel at normal room/car temperatures, so please don't generalise this testing out to other polysaccharides!

 

8. No SITB in my Exp 5 which is *still* on my bench. So I'll worry about it if and when I see it.

 

9. There seems to be overall graduated settlement happening now in that Exp 5 jug. It hasn't been touched for weeks and now has a clear-ish portion at the top (with miniscule luster particles), with evenly graduated and increasing particle sizes as I look from the top zone down towards the bottom of the jug (which contains around 200mL). A brief stir and it's all suspended again.

 

My son is apparently starving and needs filling....

 

Edit: The Exp 5 jug rinsed clean with 2 fills of water. No luster left behind.

You are my hero. I'm going to get supplies and try to replicate your xanthan experiments as soon as possible (and after that is anyone else up to see what happens with glittery iron gall ink?) but that's probably a few weeks out. Thank you so much for doing all this work and posting such clear results! Edited February 16, 2015 by WirsPlm

[Intellidepth]

You are my hero. Thank you so much for doing all this work and posting such clear results!

You're welcome. The ink blend hasn't been tried in regular pens yet (non-flex) - they are still on their way to me from China and Malaysia. Please post results from your inksperiments.

 

I have some remaining hypotheses to test with the sacrificial pens, one of which has to do with the influence of shearing speed while writing.

[Intellidepth]

The Lamy Vista turned up, as did a few CK Designer Luster Dusts this am. I was too impatient to let the bubbles settle out of the mix before loading the pen. It has a 1.1 nib.

 

The xanthan/glitter ink ran *significantly* on the dry/skippy side through the Lamy Vista. I thought I'd seen/felt this a little with my Konrad but hadn't been sure whether it was my nib setup or the mix. Today, it could also be due to the bubbles trapped between the feed and casing, so I'll wait until the bubbles settle out and re ink the pen with the mix again.

 

My gut feel is that I may need to break back the ratio of xanthan concentrate to ink.

[Intellidepth]

The current ratio is too dry/skippy. Tried 2 types of Noodler-blended inks with different brands of luster in each, in 2 pens - Lamy Vista and Konrad.

 

The one with the finer new dust (CK Designer Ruby Red) was very skippy, so much so that the Konrad when used unflexed for half a page didn't continue to feed the feed (if that makes sense!). Once the feed's ink supply ran out, it didn't re-feed and needed a piston twist to restart. In contrast, continual flexing for each letter was not too bad - on the dryish side but continued to feed from the feed. Unlike the Konrad, the Lamy continued to write from the ink supply with the new dust blend, but was still irritatingly dry/skippy.

 

I also fed the Lamy the orange-yellow luster mix shown earlier in this thread. It performed better than the new dust ink blend, but was still skippy, particularly evident with very fast writing.

 

Summary: current ratio (4.5mL to 0.5mL concentrate + dust) awesome for dip nibs, not great for everyday pens. Going to back off the ratio.

[Intellidepth]

Quick update: 0.5mL of new fresh plain ink added to 3 ml of orig ratio blend (both lots) works way better with Lamy fine nib. I'll do the math later as I'm off to visit a professional with my ink-stained fingers. LOL. Great conversation starter I reckon.

[Intellidepth]

After many pages of writing and many experimental fills/empties/flushes/dips today, I've reached these temporary conclusions.

 

PENS WITH FEEDS

 

1. The least amount of xanthan possible to meet your suspension needs is better. Less xanthan = less drier flow. More xanthan = drier flow. This is due to the significant change in viscosity to suspend particles. Very noticeable at speed (skipping), less noticeable during careful or medium speed, or with just the right ratio per pen/feed/particle combo. Not an issue with dip pens at all. I'll discuss them later.

 

2. Luster particle size matters. Larger particles = need more xanthan to keep suspended. Smaller particles = need less.

 

3. Original ink viscosity matters for pens with feeds. If original ink is typically runnier = more xanthan. If original drier = less.

 

4. Pen type/feed matters. What works in the Konrad doesn't equate to the Lamy's needs. The Lamy needs runnier viscosity (less xanthan). Also, if I had a spare feed for the Konrad, I'd go so far as to do some channel/feed carving for the 'perfect' experience - perfect suspension plus speed.

 

5. Shearing rate/speed of writing matters (for feed pens only). However it is subject to all the factors above, particularly feed/nib setup and ink to xanthan ratio.

 

6. Different nib widths (Fine vs 1.1) on the same pen with same ink made no difference to performance of the ink blend.

 

So...

Maximum ratio would be 0.5mL xanthan concentrate to 4.5mL ink.

 

If using in a Lamy-type pen (eg enclosed feed or drier), start with 0.5mL xanthan concentrate to 6mL ink. EDIT: the Lamy can manage with a lot less xanthan. I've broken it down even further quite a bit as I'm writing exam notes and can't deal with any skipping/slow speeds. At quite low concentrations it holds particles in suspension while writing without any skipping. Think it must be an interaction of narrow dia. space (Lamy converter), surface tension, and shearing properties.

 

If you are happy with suspension lasting a few hours, using less xanthan is fine and will enhance your writing experience.

 

DIP NIBS

1. This xanthan+luster application really, really shines in dip nib work. The ratio is 0.5mL xanthan concentrate to 4.5mL ink.

 

2. It significantly enhances the fineness of the fine lines that can be achieved with a dip pen (halved mine).

 

3. It ensures even distribution of luster from the first letter right to the end of a single dip's ink supply in direct proportion to the amount of ink being laid down. My limited experience with commercial glittered fp inks from a dip nib led to dumping of glitter on the first letter, with the glitter rapidly exponentially decreasing to a disappointing level by the end of the ink supply.

 

4. With xanthan there's no need to keep shaking the vial every dip to redistribute the glitter. Done once at the beginning of the session is sufficient for at least 12 hours or more of suspension depending on particle size/viscosity.

 

When the Jinhao's arrive I'll do dehydration (aka kill-the-pen) tests. Hopefully by then others will be able to report in on their experiences.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Intellidepth

[Intellidepth]

Re the alcohol (non)issue - don't have time to go back and find/absorb/summarise those academic/scientific articles about xanthan and alcohol I read, but here's a link that pretty much says what matters: xanthan remains stable in up to 60% alcohol. The science articles said pretty much the same thing but specified particular alcohols and varying percentages. (The type of alcohol required for xanthan's initial precipitation is activated during the solution's fermentation stage, not the finished product stage.)

 

The alcohol comment is about 3/4 way thru this web page.

http://www.molecularrecipes.com/hydrocolloid-guide/xanthan-gum/

 

I just had to put this quote from that article in as it made me smile "In high concentrations, it will form a mucusy paste that looks like a gel but is not technically a gel..." Perfect description LOL.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Intellidepth

[Intellidepth]

The kill-the-pen experiments began yesterday am. Two 'identical' Jinhaos, caps off, nibs down, full converters with Exp 6 ratios, and more than the usual amount of luster.

 

After dehydration I was thinking of using one to check whether a dip-in-water (or soak) might resurrect it and one to see if a converter-twist might solve anything. If you have better ideas, please let me know.

 

How long do you want them to dehydrate for? A week? Two?

 

(It was interesting to see how differently they wrote with the same ink blend. One was happy at medium-fast speeds, the other skippy at any speed. Visually, the nibs and feeds were set up the same as I tried to get them to be as identical as possible.)

[TheRealScubaSteve]

Thanks for the details - this is good stuff. I did my dry test for 2 or three weeks, but I think 1 week is plenty overkill.