Thinking Of Buying A Desiderata Pen Instead Of A Waterman 52

[BookCat]

Sorry ainterne, but I'm not getting involved in this silliness. I will pm you.

[Polanova]

I have a number of vintage pens with flexible nibs (not a WM 52 though)

and agree with ainterne on all his mayor points & have ordered a Desiderata last week

 

Just to add:

Buying a WM 52 does not guarantee you a super flexible nib (only if a writing sample is part of the description & then it`ll cost you!)

 

One also should`t be gung ho about a WM 52 as there are numerous lesser known vintage brands, which can be just as good as a Waterman (and even look the same!) but cost a lot less because everyone & their mothers keep focusing on the WM 52!

 

There`s something to be said about using a flex nib without having to worry about ruining a 100 year old nib.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Polanova

[FarmBoy]

I do not worry about using my 100 year old pens and their nibs.

 

Thr trick to flex nibs is to let the nib do the work. If the nib will not flex like you want without forcing it, likely the nib is not flexible. One of my favorites are the threads about flexible 51 nibs...

[Vinayj009]

Buying cheap ones with someone things wrong is a hit or a miss. Also you have to be resourceful. If you have the correct knowledge you might find an expensive pen for cheap too. Always be on the lookout

[redisburning]

Boy, boys..... if you had read the whole thread you'd know that I bought a Waterman's 352 from the classifieds, from a member I trust, for a VERY reasonable price. I now have this pen and am very pleased with it. It's not a wet noodle, but has greater flex than my other flex pens so I'm having to learn how to control it.

 

?

 

This is a forum, why would you expect people to do something as silly as read the posts? It's not like the express purpose of a forum is to have posts of relevant information held under organizational topics to serve as a reference of a conversation. No, it's mostly just a soap box for people to stand on to say vaguely tangential ideas over and over again until they have made a caricature of themselves. this is where a self-aware joke would go if I thought anyone would get it.

[PrestoTenebroso]

 

?

 

This is a forum, why would you expect people to do something as silly as read the posts? It's not like the express purpose of a forum is to have posts of relevant information held under organizational topics to serve as a reference of a conversation. No, it's mostly just a soap box for people to stand on to say vaguely tangential ideas over and over again until they have made a caricature of themselves. this is where a self-aware joke would go if I thought anyone would get it.

ROFL! This is perhaps my favorite thread now.

[jasonchickerson]

This has become a thread about postage prices, but I'll add my thoughts about the original question for future readers.

 

There are other options for full flex than the Waterman 52, and at a much smaller price. I have a vintage, full flex Conklin Crescent-filler 25 with Toledo #2 nib in worse cosmetic shape than this one, which I picked up for about $80. It is a marvel, flexes very well and is easier to use than a dip pen.

 

That said, I just purchased a Desiderata Mercury "second" because, though judiciously trying to use the correct angle for the shades, the Conklin is very slightly sprung on the right tine after a month of attempting Copperplate. It still writes perfectly well at them moment, but I'll not further the damage. I'll use the Desiderata from now on, and replace the nibs as they wear. My Conklin will go back to being a very cool daily writer.

[Cryptos]

Good for you! I very much enjoyed the whole concept of the Desiderata pens. Sadly I am playing catch-up for all eternity with them (as soon as I accumulate enough cash they're sold out, and I cannot hold on to the cash for too long, alas). One day, maybe...

[Oldtimer]

I would buy the Waterman. You can buy a dip nib and a holder for a few $ and have both.

The softness of a Wateman can be tasted and savoured like a good wine and it inhibriates the senses. That is all I will say and please forgive any typing errors.

[Crewel]

I lucked out on a Waterman 52 with a flexy 14k #2 nib. It may not be a wet noodle, but it is satisfyingly flexible for my purposes. A writing sample can be found here.

 

I've not had a chance to use a Desiderata pen, but I think it would be a wonderful bargain. If you can enjoy the use of a dip pen nib without the hassle of repeated dippings, then that is a win-win situation.

 

However, I prefer the Waterman, or actually the vintage flexible nibs, more just because they have a different feel versus dip pens and some of the modern "flex" steel nibs. Mine has more "spring" to it. My Waterman nib is flexible enough that I do not have to consciously "flex" the nib to even achieve minor line variations through normal writing.

 

On a different note, you can get some great deals on Watermans and other vintage pens with flex nibs. When I troll through the bay, I habitually disregard any Watermans going for $100 or more and look carefully at the offerings below that price range. If the nib looks to be in good condition, you can find a decent one @ $50 or less or little more. You may end up with a pen that needs some work, but most of the time its just a simple resac and clean. Should not be difficult, and you have the satisfaction of restoring a pen to a useable condition.

[amk]

I don't often disagree with Cob but he's talking rubbish today.

 

I tried to flex a shovel when I was digging up a yucca plant in the garden. The handle broke.

 

Also, the shovel is really no good to write with at all.

 

Crewel is right about finding vintage Watermans cheaply. If you're only after the nib, you can even find pens that are missing the cap, chewed up, etc, for a matter of a few bucks, and it's worth the risk then. I've bought some truly lovely nibs for very little money, BUT I've then had to do a bit of work finding the right body to fit. And I have one red ripple, admittedly not in the very best condition, and with a cap that's about twenty years younger than the pen (though, miracle, it screws on with a good fit) - do I care? No, because it writes nicely. Cost me $10.

[BookCat]

Looks like there's been a lot going on in this thread which I've missed; lots of posts seem to have been deleted between 13th and 18th Feb. Interesting.

 

Again, for anyone wondering, I bought a waterman 'Starlet' and I'm very happy with it.

[KBeezie]

Well (and maybe I have mentioned this before) a shovel will flex if you push hard enough.

 

Some of the pictures of "flex" on eBay make me shudder.

 

Cob

and this is why I ask for a write sample if someone advertises flex as well as asking them if they're doing it lightly or not (like... no more pressure than it takes to crumble a potato chip versus trying to crack open a peanut shell).

Edited February 19, 2015 by KBeezie

[Limner]

This has become a thread about postage prices, but I'll add my thoughts about the original question for future readers.

 

I'm of the same mind as jason (bolding mine)...I'm not interested in "wading into the fray", and I know BookCat has found a pen she's happy with (which is fantastic!). The advice below is for anybody considering flex pens, and the myriad choices they have before them.

 

First: take an honest assessment of your experience, skill, desired goal(s), and most importantly--patience level. If you're inexperienced--maybe you've seen gorgeous examples of calligraphy, or pen-&-ink drawing, and would love to learn to produce such yourself--you need to be fully aware that it's not the pen that's responsible, it's the practice. You should be spending far more time practicing with your chosen tool(s) than searching for them, and know that--no matter how often you see one brand or model lauded over another--there is no magic pen out there that makes it possible for you to simply write/draw/calligraph like an angel from the second you hold it in your hand. I realize that for many of you reading this that I'm stating the obvious; but for others...well, we all like to believe in magic, don't we?

 

Second: You need to ultimately enjoy the activity you're engaging in to have any success in it. I can pretty much guarantee you won't enjoy using a flex pen the first time out...even if you're an artist accomplished in other mediums, or a writer with great penmanship. The tool is foreign to you, and you need to give yourself time to get a feel for it, find your own 'rhythm' with it, adapt to it. If you're expecting instant gratification, you'll be disappointed.

 

Which brings me to: frustration. You won't enjoy learning calligraphy/drawing if you're constantly frustrated by your pen. Do you have the time and patience to fiddle with a temperamental pen? Even if you do--or just enjoy tinkering--is that time spent worth it to you? Will it lessen the amount of time you have available to spend practicing with that pen?

 

As somebody who has used all kinds of pens, this is the course I recommend for somebody new to flex pens:

 

1. Start out by getting yourself an inexpensive nibholder and a selection of flexible dip nibs (Zebra or Nikko G-nibs, Hunt 101, etc.), a 1-oz. bottle of india ink, and a supply of medium- to heavy-weight smooth finished paper (plate bristol, B&R Paris, or the like) and practice, practice, practice. If you find G-nibs too soft, and feel you want less variation in your line--you may want to switch to semi-flex nibs. By the time you've completely finished that bottle of ink, you should have a fairly good idea of whether or not you want to continue with flex, and how much time, money, and attention you're willing to spend on it.

 

2. Invest in a Desiderata (whichever model you want), extra nibs, some fountain pen ink(s), more paper and practice, practice, practice. While you'll be familiar with the nib, your rhythm will no doubt change, and your speed will increase due to the constant ink flow. If you don't already have experience using (non-flex) fountain pens, you'll learn what it takes to care for and maintain one. You'll learn how to change a nib and adjust a feed. You'll impress your friends and enrage your enemies.

 

3. Eventually, you may ultimately want to stay with the Desiderata and dip nibs, or you may still be curious about other flex options; in either case, you'll now know just what you're looking for in a pen. You'll know whether or not you have the time and temperament to work on a vintage "fixer-upper" with a super flexible nib, or if you should save up for one in perfect working condition; you may opt to modify the nib on a modern pen.

 

The key is: it's difficult to search for a flex pen unless you know what you want and/or need in a flex pen. And you won't know until you've had experience with one. That sounds like a Catch-22 situation, but it doesn't have to be if you start with something that gives you the most options (dip nibs and holder) and toss out the options that don't work for you and keep the ones that do.

 

It'll make wading through the myriad of choices and cacophony of opinions much, much easier.

[jasonchickerson]

well, we all like to believe in magic, don't we?

 

Speak for yourself, Linda. I learned by magic.

 

Maybe that's why I don't have one tenth your talent.

 

Great points made, and great artwork. Thanks.

[Cryptos]

Can't argue with that Linda, great points all. I, however, do not fit into it well. I grabbed a cheap holder and some Zebra-G nibs and jumped straight in with no expectations (important attitude that) and had a great time. My skills sucked, still do, but I didn't get frustrated either. By contrast, I have a Mabie Todd Blackbird with a flexible nib that was far more problematic for me to use, from a nib perspective, as I find it softer than the Zebra-G. Now I have it under control.

 

So to add to Linda's excellent Carnegie Hall advice, I would say that cultivating an attitude of 'no expectation' can be really helpful (in all walks of life). And anyway, it's all fun!

[Limner]

 

Speak for yourself, Linda. I learned by magic.

 

Maybe that's why I don't have one tenth your talent.

 

Great points made, and great artwork. Thanks.

 

Drat! You mean there's an easier way?! Why was I never told this?

And, thank you .

 

Can't argue with that Linda, great points all. I, however, do not fit into it well. I grabbed a cheap holder and some Zebra-G nibs and jumped straight in with no expectations (important attitude that) and had a great time. My skills sucked, still do, but I didn't get frustrated either. By contrast, I have a Mabie Todd Blackbird with a flexible nib that was far more problematic for me to use, from a nib perspective, as I find it softer than the Zebra-G. Now I have it under control.

 

So to add to Linda's excellent Carnegie Hall advice, I would say that cultivating an attitude of 'no expectation' can be really helpful (in all walks of life). And anyway, it's all fun!

 

Oh, CbT. I have a feeling you're the exception to numerous norms . Beginner's mind is a state well worth embracing; I wish more people would. I'll add that dropping any sense of self-judgement along with those expectations would be equally helpful.

[Cryptos]

You read me well

 

Oh, most people wouldn't say I was an exception to any norm, more likely just subnormal... and they're probably right about that.

[Limner]

You read me well

 

Oh, most people wouldn't say I was an exception to any norm, more likely just subnormal... and they're probably right about that.

 

 

I'll add that dropping any sense of self-judgement along with those expectations would be equally helpful.

So what if they do? You don't have to agree with them. They don't know what's going on inside your head.

 

 

 

ummm. Unless they do. In which case, wherever you are...get the hell out of there.

[Cryptos]

The truth is much more mundane. There's nothing going on inside my head. Oh, the occasional thought wanders through like some sort of lost soul. We have a passing acquaintance type of relationship, the thought and I. A nod to each other, a remark about the recent weather, that sort of thing. I don't really think anything of myself. I know that I have no particular skills or talents beyond following an instruction set (I suppose that could be a skill, yay!).

 

I also get taken advantage of quite a lot, even by people who say they are nice people, and if I have the temerity to stand up and voice objection it is usually only to find that it was entirely my fault anyway, so I don't bother much anymore. That may sound a bit sad but it's not really. Years of service have provided me with, I think, a unique insight into the dynamics of human interaction. I cannot interpret this information, not clever enough by half, yet I can 'feel' the environment - hard to explain I guess.

 

Anyway, happy as Larry being kicked by everyone else. That's got to be dumb, yes?