Thinking Of Buying A Desiderata Pen Instead Of A Waterman 52

[Cob]

Thank you Linda for the link to the US Postal Service's Website. The prices seem extraordinary - but as Domnortheast points out ,not as extraordinary as the charges the sellers are demanding (and don't forget the pre-paid customs racket about which I am deeply cynical).

 

I am not sure about the likely cost of posting a small box from England to the US, but I would expect in the region of £8.50 ($13) and that of course would be tracked and signed...

 

Royal Mail was a public corporation here until recently, when it was privatised. I presume that it makes a profit, otherwise the demand for shares would have no doubt been substantially more restrained thank it was.

 

And it is important to remember that here we are talking about posting a pen - yes one of those small objects that weigh a couple of ounces or less usually. The fact that the rate applies to objects up to 4lb (about 1.6kg for the metric enthusiasts which I am not), merely serves to annoy. Does the USPS actually know that some people post small items and if so, what are they doing about it?

 

My question is of course rhetorical (before someone asks me to write to them).

 

Cob

[Limner]

You're welcome, Cob; rhetorical or not, I'm sure the answer to your question would be "Absolutely nothing."

 

Yup, it costs the same to ship one pen as it does half a dozen, in those boxes. I know it doesn't help much for single eBay auctions, but if you can consolidate your purchases--band together with other FPNers in your area, or wait and order several pens at a time--into a single order, is probably the only way to reduce your individual postage costs.

[Kataphract]

Another word on postal prices from the USA to UK.

 

Finishing today on eBay is a tempting pen indeed: a Waterman's 14 eye-dropper; pricey enough most likely it will be, but the seller is outrageously asking $43.50 for US priority International postage.

 

PIRATE!

 

If I were shipping the pen to him I would charge £8.50 ($13.00) and bear the little bit extra for insurance myself.

 

What's the matter? Is it a case of "greed is good?"

 

Cob

Flat rate padded envelope to Great Britain and Northern Ireland is....

 

$46.50, or $42.75 if you pay on-line. So, you kind of owe the person a very large apology for that whole pirate thing (though feel free to berate the USPS). :-)

 

You can always ask if he is willing to use alternative shipping, just be aware that it is pricey to send anything to GB from USA.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Kataphract

[Cryptos]

Apologize for being stiffed on shipping prices when it is a known fact that a pen can be shipped for $15? Just vote with your feet.

[Cob]

Apologize for being stiffed on shipping prices when it is a known fact that a pen can be shipped for $15? Just vote with your feet.

Absolutely.

 

Cob

[amk]

Yes, shipping is a bit of an issue. USPS isn't helping American small exporters, that's for sure.

 

Hope Desiderata will consider attending a UK/European pen show or two... or even getting one of the EU online shops to carry some stock. I'm sure there's a market over here and I'm glad to have found out that I'm not the only one who is tempted to buy, but put off by the shipping cost.

 

Or maybe.... can we get a European FPN group buy together? I would be happy to take a couple of pens if that gets the ball rolling.

Edited January 15, 2015 by amk

[domnortheast]

A European FPN Pen buyers group sounds like an idea. I have emailed Pure Pens today who are based here in Wales to see whether they are willing to extend their Noodler's range for a start, perhaps they might consider stocking Presto Tenebroso's Desiderata pens as well.

 

Waiting to hear back from them.

[amk]

Great news domnortheast! If they're not then let's set a buyers group up.

 

BTW on shipping costs, kudos to Todd at isellpens. There was quite a nice pen on closeout, but the shipping was expensive as it came in a massive box - so I was given the option of buying the pen without the box, which worked out very nicely for me. (It was still very adequately protected.)

[AZBennett]

You can "decide" to ship FCI which does not qualify for tracking, insurance and signature and would drop the price of shipping down to ~9usd if you bypass paypal shipping and ship directly through usps.com. However, I have been hosed half the time I have agreed to ship this way and had to pay back the buyer when the item doesn't arrive and I have no recourse to say it did or not. I also don't factor in packaging, that's just ridiculous imo, I decided long ago to pay on my side for bubblewrap/tape/etc and when I can apply signature service I pay for that as well because its a safety valve of sorts for my own peace of mind. I agree that postal prices are dumb in the US but I have yet to run into crazy "customs" fees that other countries do have. One weird situation I found out about is that I'd you are shipping something internationally to a blind or sight impaired person, then shipping is free, though I doubt a blind person would be purchasing a fountain pen.

[AZBennett]

Oh and having a valid business shipping account with INTL coverage cuts the price a LOT! But adds to your initial purchase agreement with USPS.

Edited January 15, 2015 by AZBennett

[ainterne]

I am not going to read all these mails, way to much for me. I am going to answer the original question though.

 

I have a number of Waterman Pens, about 10+ to give you an idea. I am also the proud new owner of the Desideratapen Daedalus and I have also have one of the Ripple Ebonite pens temporarily. I also have two of the Ackerman pens.

 

The Ackeman pen is a non starter. if you want the reason why, mail me and I will share, but there are really good reason why you should steer a million miles away from it.. I mean it's good if you have only used quills etc, but even then it wears thin because of the mess involved with them.

 

Before I had bought the Daesalus I had experienced the Ackerman in an attempt to get the benefit of a very flexible nib and a constant ink supply. All of my pens bar a few are flex nibs, and so I have been spoiled a little. While they are flexible they don't hold a candle next to a Zebra Comic Pen Nib - G Model for flexibility, but remember they are not supposed to. The nibs are not supposed to be compared. One is more adapt tp everyday writing and the is for decorative writing. Or at least that’s what I thought.

 

When the Daedalus arrived I prepared the nib the way I like to prepare them using a flame for a few seconds to clean them. I took an earbud and cleaned between the tines with a little saliva and then inked up the pen.

 

Something strange was happening I thought. What's missing?? The pen hadn't stopped writing and made me have to kick start it by dipping it or coaxing the nib into writing. Incredibly I found that I had written two pages of script without stopping. I was blown away, and quite frankly thats the way things have continued. I have worn out two nibs in the last few weeks and had to replace, but who cares when i buy them at 10 for $11 from Amazon. One dollar a nib ..!! The other thing is that the Zebra does not bite into the paper like some nibs, once it start doing that, it's time to replace the nib, and it does take me a lot of writing to get to that point. If you want to use the pen, then I would suggest having a box of ear-buds close by and moistening with saliva and then rub it over the nib and especially in the feed hole and the tines. It seems to make a big difference at getting the pen to write immediately with no start up hiccups. Otherwise sometimes you have to wait a few lines to get the ink flowing properly. Once started however.....perfect. Remember these pens in this format can be used for normal everyday writing with no problems at all. Remember if you have an expensive Waterman you also should clean the nib and take care of the pen. They all take a little more investment than just using them if you want something nice and for it to stay nice.

 

Over the last week or so the important point of all this hit me. This is the first time that I have been able to concentrate on my writing and improving since I have tried dip nibs. I can actually forget about the nib not writing and just focused on my handwriting. As a result the writing has got much better and fast. Thinking about it, sometimes I would sit for 30 min trying to get the Ackerman writing and then finally write a few lines and give up. The messing about made me lose the enthusiasm to just sit and write. I do have a video I made of tying to fill the Ackerman and the way it just bleeds when filling it. Lots of mess and frustration.

 

As I said I have many flex nib expensive pens, but when I sit down and just want to write for the sake of writing my hand now reaches for the Daesalus every time. I am always concerned when using my Waterman what their value is and I don't write as expressively with them in fear of damaging the pen. I should also tell you that I am very competent at repairing nibs, not however tipping them. (boy I wish).

 

I don't know to much about the early Desideratapen pens, but right now they have it cracked. Changing the nib is very easy and you will notice that the feed has a much bigger cut than normal to feed the ink. It the widest and deepest I have seen. With that said, not once has this pen blobbed ink or overfed the nib.

 

So you can probably tell I am very pleased with my Daesalus pen. If I had to choose, then yes to buy a good Waterman you would need to pay $130 upwards. Paying $250 means you are buying from a dealer who is not selling at true value, with that said they need to earn a living like everyone else. Remember you are paying for a nib if you pay $200 for a Waterman and not the pen. The pen without the nib will cost you $70 to $100 for a nice Waterman.

 

Yes the Desideratapen pens can be purchased for $50. The reality is that they have done themselves an injustice. They should be selling the pen for $100+ from the start. The owner actually asked me how I would like the cap to fit, tight, loose etc... First time a pen manufacturer has done that for a pen under $100..!!! The nib comes out with just a gently pull and yet does not leak. There is no leaver or filling mechanism to get old and worn or break. It just needs a new sac eventually. I hear people mention that $50 buck plastic pen... If that's what you think of the current Desideratapen pen, you are seriously misguided and really don't understand the pen. I would buy at least one to get a real understanding of how nice they are.

 

The Desideratapen wins hands down for writing ability. The Waterman wins on name and heritage. The Waterman with nice nib is still an excellent writer, it just can't compete withe the Zebra for flex ability. So it depends on what you need the pen for....

I personally knowing what i know now, would by the Desideratapen but it's only because I have tried it for real. The day before I got it, the Waterman would win.

 

The Indian pen... well, all I can say is that I live in the US and therefore by from the US unless the goods are lesser quality than foreign good. I am from the Uk originally, but live in the US. If I live here then I should support local suppliers. Personally the Desideratapen is nicer in my eyes because I like that sharp, masculine shape of the pen. The indian pen is rounded and reminds me of a girls pen, and being a 50+ year old male I am not keen on a girly looking pen :-). That's perception though, nothing wrong with that, it's just my preference. Others may visualize them differently. To my knowledge they have to be custom fit to accept a Zebra nib, and quite honestly we can all do that with a Noodlers pen, and a hammer of course:-)....

 

I do think we should support our own local people and give them a chance to flourish and grow. I spent a couple of months in India last year and respect the people there and how hard some of them work, but I want to see fellow locals succeed first and believe we should support them if possible.

 

I hope that helps, I do plan to do a proper write up on the the pens and video them in action, I could certainly add a Waterman when I get some time to do it. I have a nice flexible keyhole nib in a Waterman that would make a good comparison.

 

I have not seen any other comments on the pen, so I am not influenced in anyway, I am just sharing my thoughts.

 

[tringle]

Too much to read, I am not sure what the comparison would be to a 52 vs a Desiderata. Vintage and antique are different than modern. Not by form or function but by style, material and just plain coolness. Maybe there is a member in your area who would loan you a 52 to use?

 

In the classifieds I have not seen a 52 for over $195 in a very long time, which by current or last checked was a lot less than 200-300 British Pounds.

 

Good luck.

 

Troy

[ainterne]

tringle

 

I was answering the original question in this thread. Its exactly about a Waterman 52 vs a Desideratapen

Why do I need to loan a 52? I own a bunch of them..lol..

[tringle]

tringle

 

I was answering the original question in this thread. Its exactly about a Waterman 52 vs a Desideratapen

Why do I need to loan a 52? I own a bunch of them..lol..

 

Although your post was prior to my post, I was responding to the originator of the post as they were interested in the 52 vs the Desiderata..Maybe with your excess of pens you could loan the originator one of yours?

[ainterne]

I will jump straight on that tringle, and while I am at it i will send my watch and grandchild also..ok? :-).

For one minute i thought you were serious, but then when you made that obvious faux pas of suggesting that anyone could have an excess of Waterman's then I knew that you were teasing me.

 

So I have read all the entries now. The one item that does drive me mad is that shipping issue. COB is quite right, there is something not 100% about the shipping costs.. He sold me a nib a few months ago and I got it after a week and it costs around $8.00. When I wanted to send a package tracked to Ireland, I was quoted $54... !!!! So the only way I could sent it was non registered. The idea of sending a pen non-registered or tracked via the post sends tringles tingles down my spine. :-)

 

Seriously though, I know of a couple of people recently that have sold flex pens from these sites to purchasers, only to find out that then pen is returned, and then on close inspection find the nib sprung. That's the problem selling pens with older flex nibs, they are not as robust as people think sometimes. If you take a nib from the feed and it's an old nib, there is a chance the nib will crack because it's lost it's support of the section, and often it's not even noticed immediately. I have recently bought a USB microscope to check for cracks as they can get worse in a heartbeat. They are often much more delicate than people think. So a heavy handed novice with a good flex nib on any antique pen can trash the nib so very easily, and then they are going to have to sent it to to someone and then get charged to have that fixed. I really like the idea of keeping the Waterman (or similar pens) safe and sound and not overdoing it with them, and personally would suggest novices do the same until they have leaned to handle a flex nib properly. Because of the heritage of the 52's we should protect them as much as possible + its kind of sad for the novice if they ruin an antique nib.

 

We see lots of pictures of people splaying tines to show how much they flex, of course you could never write like that. The only way to show a nibs capabilities is to show a proper writing example.. Then the difference really shows on how well the Zebra can perform in comparison.

Not because of pure flex, but because of the reflex of the nib etc. I have seen nibs that flex tremendously and then take 10 mins to straighten out again..(ok ok not 10 mins, just the 5:-)).

 

Anyway, apologies, I didn't see any reference to a previous mail or the person in the top of your note so thought it was a follow on to mine.

I swear, this ageing process and I really don't get a long very well...lol

[tringle]

I will jump straight on that tringle, and while I am at it i will send my watch and grandchild also..ok? :-).

 

For one minute i thought you were serious, but then when you made that obvious faux pas of suggesting that anyone could have an excess of Waterman's then I knew that you were teasing me.

 

So I have read all the entries now. The one item that does drive me mad is that shipping issue. COB is quite right, there is something not 100% about the shipping costs.. He sold me a nib a few months ago and I got it after a week and it costs around $8.00. When I wanted to send a package tracked to Ireland, I was quoted $54... !!!! So the only way I could sent it was non registered. The idea of sending a pen non-registered or tracked via the post sends tringles tingles down my spine. :-)

 

Seriously though, I know of a couple of people recently that have sold flex pens from these sites to purchasers, only to find out that then pen is returned, and then on close inspection find the nib sprung. That's the problem selling pens with older flex nibs, they are not as robust as people think sometimes. If you take a nib from the feed and it's an old nib, there is a chance the nib will crack because it's lost it's support of the section, and often it's not even noticed immediately. I have recently bought a USB microscope to check for cracks as they can get worse in a heartbeat. They are often much more delicate than people think. So a heavy handed novice with a good flex nib on any antique pen can trash the nib so very easily, and then they are going to have to sent it to to someone and then get charged to have that fixed. I really like the idea of keeping the Waterman (or similar pens) safe and sound and not overdoing it with them, and personally would suggest novices do the same until they have leaned to handle a flex nib properly. Because of the heritage of the 52's we should protect them as much as possible + its kind of sad for the novice if they ruin an antique nib.

 

We see lots of pictures of people splaying tines to show how much they flex, of course you could never write like that. The only way to show a nibs capabilities is to show a proper writing example.. Then the difference really shows on how well the Zebra can perform in comparison.

Not because of pure flex, but because of the reflex of the nib etc. I have seen nibs that flex tremendously and then take 10 mins to straighten out again..(ok ok not 10 mins, just the 5:-)).

 

Anyway, apologies, I didn't see any reference to a previous mail or the person in the top of your note so thought it was a follow on to mine.

I swear, this ageing process and I really don't get a long very well...lol

 

 

No worries, after four pages and font size of 3, I get a bit confused myself on the original topic and sometimes ask "whats my name?"

[FarmBoy]

I will jump straight on that tringle, and while I am at it i will send my watch and grandchild also..ok? :-).

 

For one minute i thought you were serious, but then when you made that obvious faux pas of suggesting that anyone could have an excess of Waterman's then I knew that you were teasing me.

 

So I have read all the entries now. The one item that does drive me mad is that shipping issue. COB is quite right, there is something not 100% about the shipping costs.. He sold me a nib a few months ago and I got it after a week and it costs around $8.00. When I wanted to send a package tracked to Ireland, I was quoted $54... !!!! So the only way I could sent it was non registered. The idea of sending a pen non-registered or tracked via the post sends tringles tingles down my spine. :-)

 

Seriously though, I know of a couple of people recently that have sold flex pens from these sites to purchasers, only to find out that then pen is returned, and then on close inspection find the nib sprung. That's the problem selling pens with older flex nibs, they are not as robust as people think sometimes. If you take a nib from the feed and it's an old nib, there is a chance the nib will crack because it's lost it's support of the section, and often it's not even noticed immediately. I have recently bought a USB microscope to check for cracks as they can get worse in a heartbeat. They are often much more delicate than people think. So a heavy handed novice with a good flex nib on any antique pen can trash the nib so very easily, and then they are going to have to sent it to to someone and then get charged to have that fixed. I really like the idea of keeping the Waterman (or similar pens) safe and sound and not overdoing it with them, and personally would suggest novices do the same until they have leaned to handle a flex nib properly. Because of the heritage of the 52's we should protect them as much as possible + its kind of sad for the novice if they ruin an antique nib.

 

We see lots of pictures of people splaying tines to show how much they flex, of course you could never write like that. The only way to show a nibs capabilities is to show a proper writing example.. Then the difference really shows on how well the Zebra can perform in comparison.

Not because of pure flex, but because of the reflex of the nib etc. I have seen nibs that flex tremendously and then take 10 mins to straighten out again..(ok ok not 10 mins, just the 5:-)).

 

Anyway, apologies, I didn't see any reference to a previous mail or the person in the top of your note so thought it was a follow on to mine.

I swear, this ageing process and I really don't get a long very well...lol

 

What you describe is what happens when people (sellers and buyers) that don't know what a flex nib is therefore every nib is a flex nib because flexible nibs are cool.

 

Since I like nib work, I say every nib is flexible, some just flex once.

 

FB

[BookCat]

Boy, boys..... if you had read the whole thread you'd know that I bought a Waterman's 352 from the classifieds, from a member I trust, for a VERY reasonable price. I now have this pen and am very pleased with it. It's not a wet noodle, but has greater flex than my other flex pens so I'm having to learn how to control it.

 

I also purchased a handmade Ranga dip pen with ebonite feed and asked an FPN member who also has one of these if it can be adapted for use with a Zebra G nib. Because the feed is ebonite, this is just a matter of heat setting. The customer service from the makers of this pen was excellent, ensuring I was happy each step of the transaction. I've received the pen, which writes for one side of A4 on a single dip. I ordered some Zebra G nibs at the same time I ordered the Ranga Pen, but these still haven't arrived (coming from Japan).

 

As for the Ackerman!!! I unfortunately ordered this before reading the reviews. I then immediately cancelled the order. He sent an email briefly agreeing to cancel, but hasn't refunded the money paid. Time to open a dispute with PayPal!

 

As to whether I should have ordered the Desiderata, I'll never know unless I purchase one in the future, which is always a possibility; but I have no plans to do so at present.

[Cob]

What you describe is what happens when people (sellers and buyers) that don't know what a flex nib is therefore every nib is a flex nib because flexible nibs are cool.

 

Since I like nib work, I say every nib is flexible, some just flex once.

 

FB

Well (and maybe I have mentioned this before) a shovel will flex if you push hard enough.

 

Some of the pictures of "flex" on eBay make me shudder.

 

Cob

[ainterne]

Boy, boys..... if you had read the whole thread you'd know that I bought a Waterman's 352 from the classifieds, from a member I trust, for a VERY reasonable price. I now have this pen and am very pleased with it. It's not a wet noodle, but has greater flex than my other flex pens so I'm having to learn how to control it.

 

I also purchased a handmade Ranga dip pen with ebonite feed and asked an FPN member who also has one of these if it can be adapted for use with a Zebra G nib. Because the feed is ebonite, this is just a matter of heat setting. The customer service from the makers of this pen was excellent, ensuring I was happy each step of the transaction. I've received the pen, which writes for one side of A4 on a single dip. I ordered some Zebra G nibs at the same time I ordered the Ranga Pen, but these still haven't arrived (coming from Japan).

 

As for the Ackerman!!! I unfortunately ordered this before reading the reviews. I then immediately cancelled the order. He sent an email briefly agreeing to cancel, but hasn't refunded the money paid. Time to open a dispute with PayPal!

 

As to whether I should have ordered the Desiderata, I'll never know unless I purchase one in the future, which is always a possibility; but I have no plans to do so at present.

 

 

This is not so much for you Bookcat, but others reading it, as I am sure you have considered this BookCat.

 

You can heat the feed to change its shape in length, but not so easy to change it's diameter. So while the nib can often look like it's on the feed, you need to know what's happening between the feed and the nib. Unless the space is consistent you may get the pen working a little and it seemingly would work, but you will never get it working perfectly. You could cut a 10 foot channel in the feed to try and get more flow, but if the nib and feed are different diameters then your efforts are for nothing The nibs are one circumference and the feed another. They have to match, else you have to start forming the nib to match the feed. Once you do that you change the profile of the nib and problems will occur. What the Desiderata offers is the right feed for the Zebra and nothing needs to be heated up, bent, squeezed etc etc.. So those that can't or are not very good at forming a nib around a feed, the solution is a very good one considering the price.

 

Please also note that when buying the nibs from Amazon you are going to find that the sizes of the nibs vary. I know this because I measured them last week for someone else from various packs of nibs I have from Amazon.. The tolerance is quite broad. So that has to be allowed for....Unlike a fountain pen nib that is married to the feed for some time, the Zebra nibs are married only for a short time if the nib is used often..... That means it could be working fine now with one nib, and then apparently no more with another nib, so keep a good supply if you plan to use this type of nib consistently.

 

After messing about with Noodlers pens and other and these nibs I realized this was a big factor in consistency. Why would it work really well sometimes and not others. Why do some people report success and others not.

 

I don't know if other manufactures of nibs have better tolerances when making this kind of nib, I have yet to get enough examples to compare accurately. What I do know is that even with the Desiderata, a couple of Zebra nibs gave me many more problems than others. It was not the pen or the feed, it was the nib. So get used to the idea that you may save yourself a lot of trouble by just throwing the odd nib away if it starts giving you problems and using another nib. It will save you much time in frustration. You can always use a nib for another application if it does not work in your new pen.

 

Also, you can get the Zebra nibs from Amazon in two days if you choose prime. I bought some more on Monday they have arrived.

 

Good luck with getting your money back..Sorry to hear another problem tied to the Ackerman pens:-(..... I have easily 30 mails from this clown that said that he would do something the following day and never bothers. He is an embarrassment to the pen industry. I produced a video showing him how the filling mechanism one of my pens was broken. He watched the video and assured me that it was his fault, a mistake when making the pen. He offered to send a replacement the following day. After many mails telling me he forgot or parts didn't arrive or ...well just a raft of excuses... and months later, I still to not have my replacement. Actually he owes me two. Yes I have got one working, but because of my input to correct the issues.

 

If there was a real problem, and he explained that and then asked for time, I would surly allow that. However the fact that he repeatedly lies and apparently to many others also, makes my cringe. The concept is a good one in effect for those that would like to use all sorts of different inks etc.

 

The problem is that his workmanship is the worst and he is not embarrassed enough to improve. I would give anyone a chance that makes a mistake and is trying to improve. When someone blatantly lies and shows no remorse for the lies then that does it for me, enough is enough. We all make mistakes, but most of us don't consistently lie and mislead over months and months.........Sigh...