"MB Precious resin" vs a "Glock" pistol

[Samovar]

The precious resin issue is a regular topic on this forum.

Between me and my dad, we have managed to shatter 5 MB.

 

I'm not a violent man, but I have had the chance to fire a Glock pistol, a pistol made out of polymer and metal. For non specialist, yes, the Glock and many modern pistols are made out of plastic! Cops and soldiers life depends on it!

 

I believe the specific type of polymer is nylon 6. Knife maker uses a wide variety of super hard plastic for handles and even blade. I bought a dagger made out of Zytel that cannot be detected by metal detector, this specific plastic is really really strong.

 

Would it be possible for the guys at MB to go out for a beer with the scientist at Dupont plastic and come out with a super resistant "Precious Resin"?

 

Or maybe, the fragility of the precious resin is part of MB business plan.

By the way, I have never seen a company so good at fixing a destroyed pen!

They are miracle workers.

 

 

Samovar

 

 

 

[mdg137]

Ive looked for a thread on precious resin, and I swear I can remember reading one, but I cannot find one on what exactly "precious resin" is composed of...

 

Is it a polymer? Is there a glass component?

[Jerome Tarshis]

I haven't searched FPN for postings on "precious resin," but I feel fairly sure that the Usenet news group alt.collecting.pens-pencils, archived by Google Groups, will turn up postings and threads and harangues about Montblanc's precious resin.

 

Today I was told something that may or not be true, but if true would deflect some of this malediction directed toward Montblanc: Aurora was using the same kind of plastic before Montblanc adopted it for its recent production. (By "recent" I mean some time well after World War II.)

 

Aurora doesn't describe its high-end pens as being made of precious resin. Aurora doesn't offer any special description of the plastic they use. Still, the Aurora 88 re-release I bought not long ago does have the gleaming black look I associate with Montblanc.

 

So maybe it isn't only Montblanc that needs to have a beer with the purchasing department of Glock. Maybe it is several pen manufacturers.

 

BTW, as I understand "precious resin" it does have glass in it. Shines very nicely. Resists marks of ordinary wear. Easy to wipe clean.

 

Doesn't seem to have much tensile strength by way of resisting impact. However, I am not in touch with complainers about Montblanc. Do all the black pens shatter, or only some models? This could be an important point. The plastic Parker used for the 61 was far less resistant to cracking than the plastic in the "51," and other manufacturers who went down the same road found their pens cracking, too. In other cases it might be thickness rather than the substance itself to blame.

[maryannemoll]

I agree. The national police's elit force in my country uses, among others, the new Heckler and Koch assault rifles, which are made of polymer plastic. They're very light, and can be operated with one hand, but then there's the muzzle rise to deal with. But all in all, the troops say the light weight does wonders, because between ease of operation and muzzle rise, muzzle rise is easier to deal with.

 

I'm not really a fan of precious resin myself, although I almost bought a Kafka one afternoon while I was feeling down in the dumps.

 

Edited to correct spelling and grammar.

Edited March 20, 2007 by maryannemoll

[FrankB]

Yes, the Glock and many modern pistols are marvels of plastic engineering. I am constantly impressed with their durability. That said, my favorite concealed carry weapon is an old Walther PPK. Just a personal preference.

 

I understand the MB's precious resin does contain some percentage of glass. And I have personally witnessed a MB Meisterstueck pen shatter like glass. I sincerely doubt the MB folks are interested in durability. They are making prestige luxury items and looks seem to be everything. - I have not heard of Aurora using MB style resin, but I do know that some Cartier pens do, like the Diablo. Those pens also look great, but they have breakage issues just like MB's.

 

I find the MB resin to be warm and comfortable in my hand, and I think it has nice aesthetics. I like my MB pens and use them frequently. But I use my MB pens at home only, and even then I am very cautious.

[SMG]

As far as I am aware "Precious Resin" is really only a polymer resin which is injection molded into pen barrels. Resin is the base material for all polymers (read Plastics), and comes in many many formulae which can be tailored for the specific application.

 

I would be failry surprised if Glock made the frame for their wonderful pistols out of strictly Nylon 66 (aka PA66 in Europe, PA standing for Poly Acetal). I am not sure that PA66 is glass or mineral filled which is what gives polymers the tensile strengths that they now exhibit.

 

Zytel, which is mentioned in the original post above, is, depending on the grade a glass filled polymer which has amazing tensile strength. The interesting thing here is that we are not talking about tensile strength, or compressive strength, which most nylons have inherently. When a pen is dropped and is broken across the barrel it is subject to shear stresses, and would require shear strength to combat this. Additionally, for crushing loads the pen would have to have sufficient hoop strength to resist.

 

Looking at a Glock the material would appear to me to be glass filled (mineral filled would be out of the question due to its hydrophobic tendencies and the resultant loss of strength). The finish of a material does not totally depend on what the fillers are, albeit some glass filled products like the Glock do have a characteristic silvery mottled appearance. This can be offset via processing parameters in the molding process to leave the item with a resin rich surface. Typically this is done by increasing the mold temperature to bring the resin to the surface, not unlike boiling cream. There is a definite decrease in strength in the resin rich surface though and could incude stress cracking if subject to stress (either mechanical or thermal).

 

That said, and it was a mouthful, MB could mold the pens in Zytel for increased strength and still acheive the nice polish that we have come to expect. The downside would be the material costs would increase, and they would not be able to use regrind as much to use up runners etc from the molding process. Regrind is typical in injection molding and when done with filled resins it decreases the size of the filler strands with each regrind, and makes it more and more difficult to keep the filler in the polymer and not at the surface. Additionally, each regrind would decrease the strength of the material.

 

Cheers,

SG

Don't ask how I know this.

[BillTheEditor]

Glocks don't break. However, they do melt. Fire a few too many rounds without stopping and see what happens.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

As far as I know, Aurora uses a material similar to what Pelikans are made of--Poly(methyl methacrylate. Don't take my word for it though. As far as I know, it's very tough. One of my modern Auroras made of what looks like PMMA took quite a hit. It didn't break or take any scratches though.

 

MB says that the resin is made of tree sap dyed to colour.

 

Dillon

[Kalessin]

QUOTE (Dillo @ Mar 20 2007, 01:59 PM)

MB says that the resin is made of tree sap dyed to colour.

I've also heard this, in which case it makes sense in MB's market: natural materials are considered to be more desirable than synthetics.

 

Consider men's dress shirts: at the bottom, the cloth is almost all polyester, at the middle- and upper-class level, 100% cotton is king, and then luxury levels are all cotton of various rare grades and tighter, more expensive weaves. (I hate the way polyester blends feel, and so I end up with a lot of 100% cotton ironing...)

 

 

[twdpens]

QUOTE (Dillo @ Mar 20 2007, 05:59 PM)

MB says that the resin is made of tree sap dyed to colour.

Which would suggest celluloid. However, it is extremely unlikely that any modern MB pen, except perhaps for the odd "limited" edition, is made from celluloid. In fact I would even pay money to take a piece of broken barrel material and have it analysed to establish its composition and I would bet pound to a penny that it is PMMA (Plexiglas, Perspex, Lucite, Permanite - call it what you wish) just as in most quality pens manufactured today.

 

I did read somewhere that the white logo device in the end of the cap of each Montblanc is made from casein, so perhaps that information is incorrect and this component is in fact celluloid.

 

SMG: my guess is that you're a Stuff Engineer. Any further thoughts on the subject?

 

Martin

[SMG]

The easiest way to determine what the material is would be to do a melt flow analysis on a sample. As it has been some time since I worked with this stuff, I cannot remember if this can only be done as a resin, ie pre molded product, or if it could be done on a broken part of a pen.

 

I do know that many people who work with resin for a long time can identify certain brands of resin by smell when it is burnt. Sounds silly, and as an Engineer I would have said that it was bunk if I had not seen it myself. I know that polyacetal has a distinctive smell, very ammonia based, when burnt. Actually I believe that Ammonia is one of the base materials which makes up acetal. This would explain why you never mould PVC in a barrel which has previously run acetal. Makes for a smelly Yellow cloud that will corrode metals.

 

Anyhow, I am sure that the exact recipe for this material is probably something that MB has contractually obliged the resin supplier to not divulge or sell to others. It would not take much for the Chemical Eng who cooked this up to make it just that much different from a standard resin that it could be patented.

 

Either way, it would seem that MB pens are somewhat more prone to damage from impact. Too bad, but it might be something that MB marketing would prefer to be part of the mystique of the marque. You wouldn't want ham fisted Engineers using these high class precision writing instruments on the shop floor, that just wouldn't do now would it. Could you imagine if you went to get your Yugo brakes replaced and the grease monkey (I use that as a term of endearment, not derision) had the little snowflake sticking out of his blackened coveralls.

No, it would be much better for the brand to have the general consumer think that only Doctors, Lawyers, Businesspersons, Professors etc the only ones who could use the pens as they would be nice to them and are sufficiently organized enough not to drop them on concrete.

 

Just my thoughts, I will go back to writing with my 146 now.

 

Cheers,

SG

 

PS, not Stuff, Automation Eng/Project Mgr.

 

 

[Samovar]

Thank you SG for the scientific lesson about polymer. I don't know if this tid bit of info might give the scientist some more info about the composition of the MB resin. When I was a younger lad, I tried to fix a broken MB ball pen with some crazy glue. I made a mess out of it and I had had the brilliant idea to remove the glue with some nail polish remover made with acetone. The pen started to melt, really bad idea...

 

It could be the ultimate Mythbuster experiment to test the shatter resistance of a MB, but the lawsuit would soon follow. This would need to be done on a private way, but I'm just a geography teacher

 

I have found the ultimate indestructible pen: the Sharkie from Cold Steel

http://www.coldsteel.com/91sp.html

 

It's more of a weapon than a pen to be honest...

 

Samovar

[georges zaslavsky]

Just note a about guns in polymer they are not the most durable, the most durable autos are the 1911's auto based pistols or browning hp or cz75 based pistols.

Back to Montblanc, one friend incidentally dropped his 2005 Montblanc and it didn't shatter. That are always legends that will give a negative view about Montblanc. A fountain pen is not made be thrown nor dropped.

[SMG]

Not sure I can agree with the statement about the reliability of the guns you mentioned. Yes Ploymer can melt. Apparently one could melt a Glock if they tried hard enough.

 

I have seen the tests which the Austrian Army subjected the Glock to and would be very surprised if the Colt could go that distance. The buffers in a Colt design are not going to stand up to the amount of rounds that the Glock would accept. The Glock design of a modified blowback lessens the felt recoil to the shooter and to the weapon itself. Throw a loaded Colt out of a helicopter at 50 ft and see if it goes off. Do it 10 times and see if it will still fire.

 

The MRBF (mean rounds between failure) rate for the Glock is much higher in my recollection than for the weapons which you mentioned.

 

I have also seen a clip of a Glock 17 (full auto 9mm) which ate over 200 rounds as fast as the operator could load and expend them. The barrel was hot, the slide was smoking, but the gun DID NOT malfunction in any way. Kep in mind that this is a stock weapon. Colts and Brownings can be made to be much more refined machines than Glocks, but at great expense and with many fine modifications by a talented gunsmith.

 

I love the Colt design by Browning. I also think that the HP and CZ are fine weapons when tuned. Glocks simply spank them for reliability out of the box.

 

Cheers,

SG

[georges zaslavsky]

The para ord p14-45 or p18-9 can easily hold a candle to glock. My uncle has a 1911-a1 that was his service gun that has shot over 5000 rounds and that was with him in vietnam. Fact is that it has never failed. He later baught in 2000 a par ord p14-45, perhaps the best imporved 1911 a1 you can get on the market combining a better extractor than on his 1960 colt 1911a1 and better accuracy. Last time I was at the range (8 years ago), I fired over 170 rounds in 9mm para cartridge in my para ord p18-9. The guy who was near me couldn't believe how tight my group was. To be honest SMG, I am not fond of plastic guns between a polymer AR and a steel one, I am going to chose the steel one.

[meanwhile]

The term "precious resin" is an insult to the intelligence of anyone expect to believe it. It's a composite of glass fibres and plastic.

 

As for why MB won't change it for something tougher, firstly the material looks nice - and this is what sells pens to its customers. Secondly changing the material would involve changed production lines and what have you. Thirdly, changing to a stronger material would be a concession of past failure.

 

 

[meanwhile]

QUOTE (georges zaslavsky @ Mar 21 2007, 08:07 PM)

The para ord p14-45 or p18-9 can easily hold a candle to glock.

Can it be cleaned by putting in a dishwasher and does it carry 17 shots?

 

Btw, not everyone loves the Colt. Colonel Hackworth, possibly the best US combat solider since WW2 and author of the famous "Vietnam Primer", thought the weapon was dangerous and responsible for a large number of US friendly fire deaths. He said (in his book "About Face") that the WW2 infantry combat veterans who trained him replaced the Colt with another gun whenever possible.

[georges zaslavsky]

QUOTE (meanwhile @ Mar 21 2007, 08:32 PM)

QUOTE (georges zaslavsky @ Mar 21 2007, 08:07 PM) The para ord p14-45 or p18-9 can easily hold a candle to glock. Can it be cleaned by putting in a dishwasher and does it carry 17 shots?   Btw, not everyone loves the Colt. Colonel Hackworth, possibly the best US combat solider since WW2 and author of the famous "Vietnam Primer", thought the weapon was dangerous and responsible for a large number of US friendly fire deaths. He said (in his book "About Face") that the WW2 infantry combat veterans who trained him replaced the Colt with another gun whenever possible. The para ord carrries 18 shots in 9mm para and 15 shots in 45 acp.Here is what separates the para ord from the ordinary 1911: http://www.paraord.com/pages/main.html http://www.paraord.com/pages/pistolparts.html http://www.paraord.com/product/category.html?cat=18 I don't know about the dishwasher cleanning. But para ord are very good guns.

Edited March 21, 2007 by georges zaslavsky

[SMG]

Well to each his own. I can only say that you do have great taste in weaponry. Those Para Ords are Canadian made.

 

5000 rounds through a 1911 Colt, not a Para Ord, is nowhere near the life expectancy of a Glock or HK. And I quote "The FBI tests did document 50,000 rounds through the Glock .40 S&W without a breakdown, and that's an impressive performance. " That my friend is a factor of 10 over your Uncle's piece (no disrespect to him whatsoever). Glock reported 300,000 rounds through one gun without failure, but this has not been substantiated.

 

I do like tuned 1911's more so than Glocks for IPSC which is not real life, but then what arena are we talking about? If I were going into the sand and mud I would carry what I knew I could rely on to get my butt back to my family.

 

I would carry a Glock, preferrably a model 20, but most likely the 21 in .40SW. 10mm rounds are a bit hard to come by these days, even if they are more effective than the .40SW. If I were going to be posted overseas with a NATO or CDN mission, I would try to get my hands on a Glock 19. Might be difficult to make it fly though, I think our esteemed government still makes our soldiers carry the Browning HP.

 

As for the "best" 1911, I think Kimber fans would disagree with that. I don't know which is "best" Kimber, Para Ord, Glock, HK, CZ, Baretta, SIG, etc etc. There is no one "best" gun, each one has pros and cons for each specific real life role. As a middle of the road day in and day out carry piece, I just like the Glock. I like the handling, I actually like the trigger, I like the Condition Zero ability. What do I know, it has been 12-13 years since I fired a handgun. BTW, it was a Glock.

 

Cheers,

SG

 

Glock torture test

Edited March 21, 2007 by SMG

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

Celluloid is a fairly resilient material (Unlike the acrylics commonly used nowadays). Also, MB pens do not smell like celluloid--they look and feel like some plastic. It looks like it's injection moulded.

 

Dillon