Small Stub Lovers Unite

[pajaro]

As much as I prefer a fine or extra fine nib, and as much as a Pilot Prera fine writing really thin delights me, I don't care for these very fine italics. I find it hard to read writing with fine italics, and I have to read it very carefully and slowly. It's not my eyesight that makes fine italic writing hard to read, but that the letters seem to close up. Too much ink too close together.

[Betweenthelines]

As much as I prefer a fine or extra fine nib, and as much as a Pilot Prera fine writing really thin delights me, I don't care for these very fine italics. I find it hard to read writing with fine italics, and I have to read it very carefully and slowly. It's not my eyesight that makes fine italic writing hard to read, but that the letters seem to close up. Too much ink too close together.

 

 

I do know what you mean - I think my most legible writing comes from my western fine Lamy 2K (the broadest nib I enjoy using), that has some feedback which allows for a lot of control. But I don't have any trouble reading my own writing, happily, and the small stubs = small, neat, and pretty writing.

[PaperDarts]

This post really inspires me - I have a .8 Online nib and a fine italic vintage Pelikan nib - I think I'm going to have to go the custom route to get a stub as fine as I would like. The writing samples are great, thanks!

[Sandy1]

Every one of my 14K stub or CIs started out as a two-tine music.

 

I don't make any "conscious" variations in my nib-to-paper angle as I'm writing. (Hmm,...now that the question was been asked, I'll give a fude-ish movement with each nib I ink up.)

When requesting a customization, I usually suggest to the nib tech that this angle for me varies between 50 & 60 degrees.

 

In addition, (possibly because of almost 40 years of daily writing with only a Pel. OBB), I tend to "want" to rotate my grip towards me. But now that my italics are cut at 90 degrees, it's a struggle for me to change the way I grip the pen. Because of this writing habit, I ask the techs to make the writing edge (& corner) a bit more rounded towards the left. My CI nibs are thus made a bit more stubbish.

 

But, no matter the width (grade?) of these nibs, a full contact has to be made with each nib's writing edge to make a complete down-stroke line. The extremes of line variation is only in two directions, down & across.

 

Mr. Masuyama seems to have more "forgiveness" built into his round-nose CI than in his other cursive italics. To date I've used five of his customizations, but now I'm down to two: the 0.6 mm. round-nose CI & a 0.95 mm. stub with incredible line variation.

 

Sandy1... I hope the above answers some of your questions, or maybe I just got carried away.

 

Hi,

 

Thanks!

 

There is a lot of nuance in the art of nib grinding and shaping, so I'm always interested to learn from the experience of other Members.

 

Please feel free to get carried away any time - enthusiasm is infectious (and enabling.)

 

Bye,

S1

[tinta]

In my limited experience, I've seen a diminishing return to an italic style nib's performance advantages, as you get to a 0.5mm (tip or down stroke) width.

What you gain in writing with italic style nibs is the ability to have line-width-variation (without using a flexy nib & technique).

 

As an italic nib gets wider & sharper edged, the line variation tends to become more dramatic. At the same time, there is a greater possibility to fill in letters that are hollow or looped.

So,... you write larger to compensate.

In reverse, as the italic (stub, CI, formal italic) gets narrower, you are able to write much smaller, not fill in letters, but the line-width-variation is also diminished.

 

Personally, a 0.5mm italic is the absolute narrowest practical limit for this style of nib. I have not seen any real advantage in a stub or CI. being any narrower.

 

That said, my eyes are not as young as they used to be.

[Betweenthelines]

In my limited experience, I've seen a diminishing return to an italic style nib's performance advantages, as you get to a 0.5mm (tip or down stroke) width.

What you gain in writing with italic style nibs is the ability to have line-width-variation (without using a flexy nib & technique).

 

As an italic nib gets wider & sharper edged, the line variation tends to become more dramatic. At the same time, there is a greater possibility to fill in letters that are hollow or looped.

So,... you write larger to compensate.

In reverse, as the italic (stub, CI, formal italic) gets narrower, you are able to write much smaller, not fill in letters, but the line-width-variation is also diminished.

 

Personally, a 0.5mm italic is the absolute narrowest practical limit for this style of nib. I have not seen any real advantage in a stub or CI. being any narrower.

 

That said, my eyes are not as young as they used to be.

 

 

Look at the first picture of my 0.4mm stub. I can write very small, as if I were using a Japanese fine, with the "e" loops preserved, and still get some rather nice line variation. That, to me, is an advantage - these sizes are aimed at those who like fine nibs, but want variation as well.

[tinta]

"Betweenthelines", I hope you don't think that I was trying to rain on your parade. There is a place for narrow italics, if you can see their benefits.

All the more power to you, if you can comfortably use a regular ball-tipped Japanese F or a 0.4 mm. stub.

Certainly a 0.4 mm. stub/italic can give you more line-width-variation than a mono-line nib of similar width.

 

My point was that one has to be able to see the line variation in the writing.

I'm sure too, that Mr Masuyama has ground you an excellent 0.4 mm. stub, as he specializes in narrow grade nibs.

I have had a 0.5 mm. CI from his shop that I no longer own. His round-nosed 0.6 mm. CI. is my narrowest nib,... period.

[SockAddict]

I am fortunate in that I still have good eyes. I don't need a dramatic difference in my stroke width to be happy. I like the slight variations just fine. And, while I first used an actual fountain pen in high school, I took calligraphy lessons when I was seven or eight, so the ability to hold the pen at the proper angle and keep it consistent is something I already have. (True calligraphy skill, not so much.)

[Betweenthelines]

"Betweenthelines", I hope you don't think that I was trying to rain on your parade. There is a place for narrow italics, if you can see their benefits.

All the more power to you, if you can comfortably use a regular ball-tipped Japanese F or a 0.4 mm. stub.

Certainly a 0.4 mm. stub/italic can give you more line-width-variation than a mono-line nib of similar width.

 

My point was that one has to be able to see the line variation in the writing.

I'm sure too, that Mr Masuyama has ground you an excellent 0.4 mm. stub, as he specializes in narrow grade nibs.

I have had a 0.5 mm. CI from his shop that I no longer own. His round-nosed 0.6 mm. CI. is my narrowest nib,... period.

 

No no, no rain assumed. I suppose it comes back to, as always, individual preference and writing style. For example, for my eyes, the 0.4mm stub has tons of variation. And in fact, everyone who has seen my writing with small stubs (non FP users) compliments it and often (mistakenly) describe it as calligraphy. But to others, they find the variation on such nibs uninteresting. *shrug*

 

 

I've been wondering whether it has to do with whether someone prints or writes in cursive. Because, it seems to me, italics really come out a lot easier and more dramatically with cursive than print, thus if someone writes in print perhaps they'd prefer broader stubs and see very little results with small ones. Not making assumptions about you, just some general musing...

[brewsky]

I prefer fine and xxf ball nibs..

 

I have a few gems that I adore.

 

I own a waterman 52 with a medium/fine factory stub. The nib is simply bliss. It is perfect for my handwriting.

 

I also have two oblique fine cursive italics on Pelikans which are a complete joy.

 

Being a left, anything over .7 mm is wasting my time, and looks like a blobby mess.

[tinta]

 

 

 

 

I've been wondering whether it has to do with whether someone prints or writes in cursive. Because, it seems to me, italics really come out a lot easier and more dramatically with cursive than print, thus if someone writes in print perhaps they'd prefer broader stubs and see very little results with small ones. Not making assumptions about you, just some general musing...

There is a fascinating, long running thread, started by dcpritch : https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/238274-stub-o-the-day/ that shows tons of examples of printing & cursive writing.

You'll see beautiful work using various widths of stub/italic nibs.

This is a thread that I visit often to see what kind of italics are in use. I'm not interested in the pens as much as in their nibs & the writing or printing samples they make.

It's a place to get ideas & inspiration for my own writing development (which leaves a lot to be desired).

Edited December 7, 2014 by tinta

[Anabasis]

I have a Parker 61 with an unusual medium stub nib. I don't know the exact width, but it is probably within the 0.6-0.8 mm range.

 

It makes for a lovely pen to use at the office.

[TMLee]

Like many others , I too started with wide stubs.

 

Of late, I find my handwriting shrinking in size

 

So I have been using what little fine nibs I have .

 

But it didnt feel good - the fine and medium nibs.

 

So i picked out 7 pens and sent them over to be reshaped into stubs.

 

 

I sent them to Michael Masuyama of 'Mike-it-Work" , and after some time, took delivery of the pens recently.

and , they were very well done.

 

I am very pleased with what Mike did to the pens.

Fine nibs are more challenging to turn into stubs, but Mike did an excellent job, seven times over !

 

I like to share with you what these 'neglected' pens have now become.

They have now become very special to me , even though I have yet to use them over a prolonged period of writing yet.

Nice writers they have become.

 

 

 

The handwriting samples are written on white paper, 5mm grids so you have a good idea of how narrow the strokewidths are.

 

 

 

First off ...

 

1) PILOT VP BLUE CARBONESQUE

<F> but stubbed ...

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/001.jpg

 

Closer pic

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/002.jpg

 

 

 

2) PILOT CUSTOM 823 Amber Transparent

<F> but stubbed ...

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/003.jpg

 

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/004.jpg

 

 

 

 

3) PELIKAN M215 SOUVERAN SILVER RINGS

<F> but stubbed

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/005.jpg

 

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/006.jpg

 

 

4) FABER CASTELL E-MOTION Black Pearwood

<F> but stubbed

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/007.jpg

 

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/008.jpg

 

 

 

 

5) KAWECO Classic Sport Black

<M> but stubbed

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/009.jpg

 

 

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/010.jpg

 

 

 

6) SAILOR 1911 Profit Large Summer Yellow

<H-M> but stubbed

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/011.jpg

 

somehow , this feels best of the lot.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/012.jpg

 

 

 

7) GEHA 790

<M> but stubbed

a very nice springy 14K 585 nib ...

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/013.jpg

 

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u236/TMLee/FP/STUBS/FINE%20STUBS/014.jpg

 

 

Its worth your while to have the nibs reshaped into beautiful writers.

 

 

 

[Betweenthelines]

There is a fascinating, long running thread, started by dcpritch : https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/238274-stub-o-the-day/ that shows tons of examples of printing & cursive writing.

You'll see beautiful work using various widths of stub/italic nibs.

This is a thread that I visit often to see what kind of italics are in use. I'm not interested in the pens as much as in their nibs & the writing or printing samples they make.

It's a place to get ideas & inspiration for my own writing development (which leaves a lot to be desired).

 

I did see that thread, and try to watch it often. It is certainly a "get out he popcorn and enjoy" thread for all the lovely variety.

 

<snip>

 

Awesome! I am envious of all your Masayuma fine stubs! Thanks for sharing.

[SockAddict]

 

Its worth your while to have the nibs reshaped into beautiful writers.

 

 

 

 

*runs to pen jar* I'll stub this, and this, and this …

[TMLee]

 

I did see that thread, and try to watch it often. It is certainly a "get out he popcorn and enjoy" thread for all the lovely variety.

 

 

Awesome! I am envious of all your Masayuma fine stubs! Thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

I have a very similar fossil of your avatar ...

 

But I can't find it now.

 

Dont know where I kept it. :wallbash:

 

Been thinking so hard , trying to remember where it could have been stashed....

 

Is it really that hard searching for fossils ?!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Many of my vintage '50-60's German pens with a bit of flex are stubbish.

I'm really enjoying my 400n's semi-flex B in my 605. Modern size would be a fat M.

 

I tend to like western F and bigger, in for me western EF is rather narrow, stubbish nib or not.

[dneal]

I love small stubs!

 

Not counting Lamy italic nibs, a Conway Stewart IF is probably the "largest" stub/CI that I have. I've posted most of them in pen reviews, from a Binder .6mm stub to a Masuyama and several Pendleton Browns, but I'll try a different take on "small"...

 

 

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/roomdog/Pens/SmallStubs1024001_zps3d33d504.jpg

 

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/roomdog/Pens/SmallStubs1024002_zps0ddd52f4.jpg

Edited December 16, 2014 by dneal

[AlejoPlay]

I love the Nemosine .6mm stubs. They're perfect. I tend to like XF/F nibs so the .6mm stub is the perfect spot for me if I want line variation. I find 1.1mm ones WAY too broad (although I use them for lack of an alternative for some of my pens).

[TMLee]

Learnt something new ...

 

I was struggling with using them fine stubs , they kinda felt scratchy.

 

So I consulted Mike (the nibmeister) and he gave wonderfully effective advice...

 

I am supposed to hold the nib at between 10-11 Oçlock to the paper.

 

Voila !

It worked perfectly.

All those stubs worked perfectly and perfectly smooth.

 

I cant be more happy with them. :D

 

I found out that I usually hold my pens at 12 to 1 O'çlock

 

Thanks again to Mike for a good job well done !!! :thumbup:

Edited December 17, 2014 by TMLee