Sailor 21k vs. 14k nibs

[falkon72]

I'm debating whether to pick up a Sailor Sapporo/1911M or a 1911 in fine.

 

I was wondering how the new 14k nibs on the 1911M/Sapporo compared with the old 21k nibs on the 1911.

[jkrewalk]

I just got a Sapporo and I think it is smother than my 1911.

[OldGriz]

The latest issue of Stylus just arrived and Richard Binder has a fantastic article on nib materials...

As far as gold is concerned he basically says that 14K is the way to go and any higher grade may very well be asking for trouble...

[Richard]

From the nib technician's perspective, 14K is better. 21K nibs are firm until they bend, then it's a pain in the tochis to realign them because they're actually soft under the repairer's fingers.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

It's a lot easier to align a 14k nib than an 18K or 21K. The 18K and 21K can be a little unpredictable.

Lets say that you are trying to align one tine on an 18K nib. At the first flex of the tine (Which is, lets say, lower than the other tine), it seems springy and does not willingly adjust properly, but then when you bend it a little more to align it, it now is higher than the other tine, then you have to repeat the whole process again. You will eventually get there, (It won't take that much longer to align in the right way in the hands of someone who is experienced, but it is more difficult.)

 

Now, the 14K nibs are more easy to align. Much of the time, someone who is experienced only needs to bend it once to align it.

 

Edit: I missed half of the post!

 

Dillon

Edited March 20, 2007 by Dillo

[OldGriz]

QUOTE (Dillo @ Mar 19 2007, 06:46 PM)

Hi, It's a lot easier to align a 14k nib than an 18K or 21K. The 18K and 21K can be a little unpredictable. Dillon

I believe that Richard basically just said that.... did it need repeating or did you just not understand it... ???

[George]

[George]

Isn't that the same as what you said before?

[falkon72]

I'm mostly interested in how smooth they write. I'm also considering the Ogiva.

[jkrewalk]

I have the Sapporo, a 1911 and the Omas Ogiva - all are incredibly smooth - no difference among them in that category. The Omas has the "softest" feel because the nib is semi flexible but other than that it is a toss up for smoothness. However, each is totally different in size, feel and balance, the Sapporo being the smallest and the Ogiva the largest.

[Stephen-I-am]

QUOTE (OldGriz @ Mar 19 2007, 11:21 PM)

QUOTE (Dillo @ Mar 19 2007, 06:46 PM) Hi, It's a lot easier to align a 14k nib than an 18K or 21K. The 18K and 21K can be a little unpredictable. Dillon I believe that Richard basically just said that.... did it need repeating or did you just not understand it... ??? Now Griz, Richard posted 1 minute after you and Dillo eleven minutes later, so it is at least possible that Dillo didn't see Richard's reply until after Dillo posted...   Stephen

[Buckeye2744]

This has been a interesting series of posts to read. I have just found the time recently to join this fantastic board and what you all bring up is the AGE OLD QUESTION on nibs excluding ink and paper.

 

I repaired vintage fountain pens at most of the Eastern Pen shows for at least 13 yrs, (retired in 2000 from Anchor Hocking Corp. & Pen Restoration) not to mention the 10's of thousands of vintage restorations at my home [Lancaster, Oh. & now Seminole, Fl.]. I have collected and dealt vintage pens since 1950.

 

I agree with Richard Binder on all he has mentioned but TWO ADDITIONAL very important considerations have to be addressed. NIB DESIGN & TENSION IN THE METAL. Of the big names, Sheaffer was the best and Waterman was the worst bar none.

 

I am just discovering the Japanese "newer pens" market and I believe that Sailor does have the best designed and tempered nibs in the business. Yes the 14K nibs should be physically stronger but the many 21K, 1911 Lg. Sz. and Pro Gear nibs that I have are OUTSTANDING AND HOLD THEIR SETTING VERY WELL.

 

In vintage pens the gold content was primarily for ink acidic resistance. The more gold the more resistance and the longer your nib would last. Today not so much of a problem with ph neutral inks. BOTTOM LINE ITS KARAT ENVY and if you can live with that buy the 14K. For resale perhaps 21K sells better!

 

Phill Bee

Edited May 2, 2007 by Buckeye2744

[Dan Carmell]

I agree with Richard Binder on all he has mentioned but TWO ADDITIONAL very important considerations have to be addressed. NIB DESIGN & TENSION IN THE METAL. Of the big names, Sheaffer was the best and Waterman was the worst bar none.

 

Now, Sheaffer Lifetime and Triumph nibs may have been the best in terms of durability, but if one wanted flex and expression, you weren't going to find it in the typical Sheaffer nib! So I'll concede that Sheaffer's nibs were well tipped and, as nails tend to be, extremely durable, but I don't think a real case can be made that the tipping on Waterman nibs before the U.S. company was in its final stages was inferior. Nor do I think that a Waterman "account" nib is inferior to an equivalent Sheaffer nib. A flexible nib is never going to be as tough as a nail nib--it wouldn't be a flexible nib if it was. That doesn't make it inferior!

 

Dan

[Ged]

At the risk of continuing the reserruction of an old thread... I have to say that technically it may appear that X nib is superior to Y nib, but until you actually use it, you may not understand what makes Y nib superior for some.

 

In the world we live in, there are very few black & whites, there are many shades of grey in between and people will find what is comfortable to them. To simply 'out' a whole category as inferior is perhaps a little... strange. People may not share your views, but that doesn't change the fact they're still people with their own preferences, and in the end, doesn't that make things more interesting for all of us?

 

Long live nibs of all karats (happily I don't have to repair any nibs ).

[Blorgy]

I agree with Richard Binder on all he has mentioned but TWO ADDITIONAL very important considerations have to be addressed. NIB DESIGN & TENSION IN THE METAL. Of the big names, Sheaffer was the best and Waterman was the worst bar none.

Phill Bee

By "Tension in the metal", were you referring to the nib's stiffness. or did you mean something else ?

[Buckeye2744]

I agree with Richard Binder on all he has mentioned but TWO ADDITIONAL very important considerations have to be addressed. NIB DESIGN & TENSION IN THE METAL. Of the big names, Sheaffer was the best and Waterman was the worst bar none.

 

Now, Sheaffer Lifetime and Triumph nibs may have been the best in terms of durability, but if one wanted flex and expression, you weren't going to find it in the typical Sheaffer nib! So I'll concede that Sheaffer's nibs were well tipped and, as nails tend to be, extremely durable, but I don't think a real case can be made that the tipping on Waterman nibs before the U.S. company was in its final stages was inferior. Nor do I think that a Waterman "account" nib is inferior to an equivalent Sheaffer nib. A flexible nib is never going to be as tough as a nail nib--it wouldn't be a flexible nib if it was. That doesn't make it inferior!

 

Dan

 

Woha, Dan. Where did I use "INFERIOR" That's your word not mine!

 

Sharpen up for me now---Regardless of firm or flex type nib, time after time when a customer would bring a pen to me for repair or nib adjustment with the complaint that "the nib changed"; it seemed that the pen would turn out to be a Waterman. I'd say the occurrence was approximately 60% of the time.

 

The Waterman nib IMHO just has the tendency to not hold its setting. That's why I disliked working on Waterman pens and doing a complete restoration then finally getting to the nib work and can't get the tines to stabilize. It was very frustrating.

 

One parting note---it may be that I was the one restoration person to get all the Waterman "difficult nib work pens" that nobody else could do or wanted to do and I was the last chance to fix the pen--who knows? The Waterman pens with Flex nibs that would return to their settings after being set WERE VERY NICE TO USE!

 

Enough said!

[Buckeye2744]

I agree with Richard Binder on all he has mentioned but TWO ADDITIONAL very important considerations have to be addressed. NIB DESIGN & TENSION IN THE METAL. Of the big names, Sheaffer was the best and Waterman was the worst bar none.

Phill Bee

By "Tension in the metal", were you referring to the nib's stiffness. or did you mean something else ?

 

 

Blorgy,

 

It would be better said by using the fraise "temper of the metal" or the balance of Tension (negative stresses) and Compression (positive stresses) do to nib design, metal composition and tempering / heat treating if any. Actually I meant the nibs ability to return to and HOLD A NEW SETTING.

 

If my restoration experience were all bunched up into a cursory summary--I had more problems with Waterman nibs holding their settings. That's all.

 

Let me know if your are still in Question--it was a pleasure conversing with you.

 

Phill Bee

Edited May 2, 2007 by Buckeye2744

[MYU]

There's nothing quite like empirical evidence, and if Phill developed his observation after working on many, many pens, there's something to it.

 

But, I am quite curious to know more details about the Waterman pens you worked on Phill. What models and years were they? I've noticed that Waterman designed and produced a fairly wide range of nibs over the last 100 years and have to believe that some of them must take adjustments well.

 

~Gary

[Dan Carmell]

Woha, Dan. Where did I use "INFERIOR" That's your word not mine!

 

Sharpen up for me now---Regardless of firm or flex type nib, time after time when a customer would bring a pen to me for repair or nib adjustment with the complaint that "the nib changed"; it seemed that the pen would turn out to be a Waterman. I'd say the occurrence was approximately 60% of the time.

 

The Waterman nib IMHO just has the tendency to not hold its setting. That's why I disliked working on Waterman pens and doing a complete restoration then finally getting to the nib work and can't get the tines to stabilize. It was very frustrating.

 

One parting note---it may be that I was the one restoration person to get all the Waterman "difficult nib work pens" that nobody else could do or wanted to do and I was the last chance to fix the pen--who knows? The Waterman pens with Flex nibs that would return to their settings after being set WERE VERY NICE TO USE!

 

Enough said!

 

Phil,

 

You're right, inferior was my word, you said, "Waterman was the worst bar none" which I guess isn't as bad as inferior!

 

Seriously, thought, what you've explained about setting the nibs makes sense and like Gary said, it also makes sense to defer to to the practical experience of someone like you who dealt with 100s of nibs over many years.

 

I am taking this thread farther off topic, but I wonder if you'd talk a little about tipping materials and methods between vintage and modern nibs and what you prefer. I see vintage nibs with the tipping material looking like it was "painted" on and then I see modern nibs with a big ball of tipping material that looks like it was welded onto the nib and I wonder which is superior or if it matters at all.

 

best, Dan

[Buckeye2744]

There's nothing quite like empirical evidence, and if Phill developed his observation after working on many, many pens, there's something to it.

 

But, I am quite curious to know more details about the Waterman pens you worked on Phill. What models and years were they? I've noticed that Waterman designed and produced a fairly wide range of nibs over the last 100 years and have to believe that some of them must take adjustments well.

 

~Gary

 

Gary, Its nice to have an opportunity to talk about pens. I hope I eventually answer your question. Here goes.

 

About the only way a restoration was done on a scarce or rare Waterman was if I was fortunate enough to acquire one or a customer obtained one and it needed serious attention. Most of those type pens required lathe and milling work to the body. And until J. Mottishaw started his nib restoration, nib repair was "notta". Yes a few of us could gold solder cracked nibs if the crack did not go through the lettering on the nib. Its almost impossible to set a nib with a crack in it.

 

Nib problems: #1. missing iridium

#2. un settable tines

#3. cracked nibs

#4. iridium warn away. Here Gary, is where I can get back on subject. You are very accurate about older pens have less iridium and newer pens seem to have more than enough. Perhaps with more aggressive nib grinding on modern pens its necessary to have large deposits of iridium

 

As you well know the common man and majority of pens sold, Waterman included, were the smaller ones. Of course the nibs in these pens were smaller and not as thick. The lack of rigidity due to thickness of small nibs USUALLY and generally meant they would have more flexibility.

 

Do to the fact that there were more of these size pens, in Waterman the #2 nibs were the most common ones I worked on.

 

What size and years? I just retrieved the Fishcler & Schnieder Golden age book. So if you have one its easier to follow .

 

Rare ones I've already talked about but the 452's all of those,452-1/2, 0552-1/2, 0352, 752, 0552, barley corn I know for sure the gold one and think also a sterling one, many 055, 56, several 58's, a few 75's, night & day, many #5's, 01955, many 94's the key hole nib was a tine floater, many #7's, probably 70 or so Patricians and those had fairly stable nibs if they were not cracked or missing iridium, not many ink views as they were a pain in the "arse" to re-sac and took a different style bladder, hundred year--I had more trouble with the plastic ends and their deterioration. And that's just about where it ends with Waterman---I did not do to many of the post war WW-2, Waterman pens.

 

You know that was fun to rehash the different models and when I saw them certain pens did stand out.

 

Talk about STANDING OUT. Here is a story that will blow your mind. Back around 1990 I'd say, I would study the antique weekly each issue for auctions in the Central Ohio area and knew the auctioneers very well. On a particular spring Friday afternoon in a suburb of Newark, Oh. (not Apple Tree auction either) I briefly toured an auction during the preview and did not see any pens. Of course the auctioneer said he though there were some pens but he was not there and I was itching to get to another auction where I knew there were many pens and suspected none of the other collectors knew of it. Well I left the Newark auction and went on to Columbus, Bexley area. Got some nice Parker O.S. Vacs.

 

To my shock and sickness a very rare Waterman was auctioned off back at the FRIGGIN Newark auction and purchased (sold for $200.) by to a "DIP PEN COLLECTOR" who later on sold the pen through an intermediary. If you ever see my old partner (in Pen Tools Assc.) Terry Mawhorter, Zanesville, Ohio, ask him about it. He's still stunned also as he did not even go to that particular auction. I think the pen was like the #424 on page 20 (F&S) but it had a number 8 nib (I think) and no overlay on the tail / cap. So it was a half overlay model Waterman. The pen was so rare that it eventually sold for some $12,000. in money and trade pens, I was told. Man was I a sick pup!!!!!!! I still have not got over that one.

 

I'll save and share some more fantastic finds with you all later on.

 

Best of health and collecting to you,

 

Phill

Edited May 3, 2007 by Buckeye2744