New Research On Iron Gall Ink

[fiberdrunk]

I found this 2 1/2 hour video on YouTube. It's by the Library of Congress. It gets into the chemistry behind iron gall ink. It also discusses conservation.

 

New Research on Iron Gall Ink

[UDog]

Thanks for finding this video.

[lahlahlaw]

Thanks! I've been using IG inks more often, it's nice to know their history.

[dcwaites]

It's not coming down fast enough for me to view it, so I am downloading it via Firefox. It will take about 5 hours...

[amberleadavis]

Thank you for sharing.

[Husar]

Thank you.

[KBeezie]

I just wonder how much like the original stuff is R&K Salix and Scabiosa they seem to be much more fountain pen friendly.

[Thuja]

I'm a conservator and would like to recommend a dutch site on iron gall ink. http://irongallink.org/igi_index.html You don't have to be a conservator to understand the material. I personally think it's fascinating stuff, I've seen manuscripts where the letters have fallen off completely and pages resemble lace.

 

Although I've seen how badly inks can behave I still love modern inks and very much enjoy using them.

[KBeezie]

  On 9/6/2014 at 8:55 AM, Thuja said:

I'm a conservator and would like to recommend a dutch site on iron gall ink. http://irongallink.org/igi_index.html You don't have to be a conservator to understand the material. I personally think it's fascinating stuff, I've seen manuscripts where the letters have fallen off completely and pages resemble lace.

 

Although I've seen how badly inks can behave I still love modern inks and very much enjoy using them.

 

Though I worry bout certain IG formulas not being UV resistant, R&K Scabiosa and Salix for example are both IG, they're waterproof yes... but they will fade in less than a year if under light. And I'm not going to be switching to dip pens any time soon

[Bookman]

  On 9/6/2014 at 9:33 AM, KBeezie said:

 

Though I worry bout certain IG formulas not being UV resistant, R&K Scabiosa and Salix for example are both IG, they're waterproof yes... but they will fade in less than a year if under light. And I'm not going to be switching to dip pens any time soon

 

Somewhere in the new reformulations trade-offs have to be made, I suppose. Personally, I don't keep any of my writings open to light any longer than it takes to write it in the first place and then read it afterwards. I wonder how well my R&K Salix writings will hold up over the years, even when tucked away in a closed, archived journal. We've all seen old IG writings at the museum, travelling exhibits maybe, things written hundreds of years ago that look as if they might've been written a day earlier. I saw a year-1217 exemplification of Magna Carta that looked like that. I assume that old IG ink had been exposed to indirect sunlight unhesitatingly and repeatedly for centuries, and yet the day I saw it at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco, it looked freshly written.

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/6/2014 at 4:48 PM, Bookman said:

 

Somewhere in the new reformulations trade-offs have to be made, I suppose. Personally, I don't keep any of my writings open to light any longer than it takes to write it in the first place and then read it afterwards. I wonder how well my R&K Salix writings will hold up over the years, even when tucked away in a closed, archived journal. We've all seen old IG writings at the museum, travelling exhibits maybe, things written hundreds of years ago that look as if they might've been written a day earlier. I saw a year-1217 exemplification of Magna Carta that looked like that. I assume that old IG ink had been exposed to indirect sunlight unhesitatingly and repeatedly for centuries, and yet the day I saw it at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco, it looked freshly written.

 

I don't know about R&K Salix, but I know Montblanc Blue-Black has faded some within the pages of one of my journals, unfortunately. But in sunshine tests, R&K Salix faded faster than Montblanc Blue-Black in a sunny window.

 

I love your signature tagline, Bookman! Me, too!

[Icywolfe]

How about for Diamine Blue-Black IG or ESS IG?

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/6/2014 at 9:23 PM, Icywolfe said:

How about for Diamine Blue-Black IG or ESS IG?

I just barely bought some ESS this summer, so it's too soon to say. I have Diamine Registrar's Ink as repackaged Chesterfield Archival Vault. This hasn't shown fading in my journals yet.

[Icywolfe]

  On 9/6/2014 at 10:31 PM, fiberdrunk said:

I just barely bought some ESS this summer, so it's too soon to say. I have Diamine Registrar's Ink as repackaged Chesterfield Archival Vault. This hasn't shown fading in my journals yet.

I don't know what is different of the ESS brand and Diamine. They both have similar labels and similar bottle size.

 

I've recently switched over from Platinum Carbon Black to Diamine IG for my important writing inks. As Carbon Black tends to glue my converter's piston in place and more expensive. So I'm hoping I made the right choice with the switch. (Long term durability.)

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/6/2014 at 10:37 PM, Icywolfe said:

I don't know what is different of the ESS brand and Diamine. They both have similar labels and similar bottle size.

 

I've recently switched over from Platinum Carbon Black to Diamine IG for my important writing inks. As Carbon Black tends to glue my converter's piston in place and more expensive. So I'm hoping I made the right choice with the switch. (Long term durability.)

 

They talk a bit about ESS not being the same as Diamine in this thread. I haven't put them side by side yet to see for myself.

 

Carbon inks are the most archival inks, actually... they show zero fading in my sunshine tests. The inks you tend to see in medieval manuscripts that have remained black are often carbon and not iron gall (there are exceptions, of course; and I've read of some manuscripts that combined carbon with iron gall). The problem is, not all of the carbon inks are waterproof. I think Platinum Carbon is mostly waterproof, if I'm remembering right. Sorry to hear it gave your converter problems. Was it a Platinum converter?

Edited September 6, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[Icywolfe]

  On 9/6/2014 at 11:54 PM, fiberdrunk said:

 

They talk a bit about ESS not being the same as Diamine in this thread. I haven't put them side by side yet to see for myself.

 

Carbon inks are the most archival inks, actually... they show zero fading in my sunshine tests. The inks you tend to see in medieval manuscripts that have remained black are often carbon and not iron gall (there are exceptions, of course; and I've read of some manuscripts that combined carbon with iron gall). The problem is, not all of the carbon inks are waterproof. I think Platinum Carbon is mostly waterproof, if I'm remembering right. Sorry to hear it gave your converter problems. Was it a Platinum converter?

No, it's a STD converter. (For a Jinhao pen.) Platinum converters and Pilot Converters aren't affected. (Which is weird.)

 

My Platinum Carbon Black is waterproof to the max. Compared to Noodler's black which actually loses a tiny bit of color and is smudged a bit with water. My Diamine IG is also waterproof but I see a tiny bit of smudging, but less than Noodler's Black. That said my KTC should be the most fadeproof (And everything else proof) and I would use it more often if it didn't have glue like properties, but I have yet to put it in a Platinum or Pilot pen (higher end) I don't want to break a pen. I still have yet to do my personal chemical tests on Diamine IG inks. (Basically any new ink I get I do a small chemical test.)

 

So did I trade a awesome archival ink for a less archival ink? If so what does IG have 1 up to pigment based, besides the cool colorshift that made my teacher get confused. (He saw my paper in a light blue. And I asked him to get my paper so I change something, and he said you have that light blue ink I know. He couldn't find it, the ink turned pretty dark black.)

 

By any chance do you know where to buy ESS IG ink from a US retailer? I don't want to import stuff from other countries. (US Customs limbo.)

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/7/2014 at 1:29 AM, Icywolfe said:

No, it's a STD converter. (For a Jinhao pen.) Platinum converters and Pilot Converters aren't affected. (Which is weird.)

 

My Platinum Carbon Black is waterproof to the max. Compared to Noodler's black which actually loses a tiny bit of color and is smudged a bit with water. My Diamine IG is also waterproof but I see a tiny bit of smudging, but less than Noodler's Black. That said my KTC should be the most fadeproof (And everything else proof) and I would use it more often if it didn't have glue like properties, but I have yet to put it in a Platinum or Pilot pen (higher end) I don't want to break a pen. I still have yet to do my personal chemical tests on Diamine IG inks. (Basically any new ink I get I do a small chemical test.)

 

So did I trade a awesome archival ink for a less archival ink? If so what does IG have 1 up to pigment based, besides the cool colorshift that made my teacher get confused. (He saw my paper in a light blue. And I asked him to get my paper so I change something, and he said you have that light blue ink I know. He couldn't find it, the ink turned pretty dark black.)

 

By any chance do you know where to buy ESS IG ink from a US retailer? I don't want to import stuff from other countries. (US Customs limbo.)

 

I'd recommend getting a Platinum Carbon pen with the ink converter and using Platinum Carbon, if permanence is your goal. Noodler's Kung Te Cheng and Heart of Darkness are very permanent, too-- no fading in my sunshine tests. Other inks that did well are Higgins Fountain Pen India, Pelikan Fount India, Levenger Raven Black, and Winsor & Newton Sepia. I believe most if not all iron gall inks will fade somewhat, changing to brown, but I don't think they'll fade out completely. They're much more durable than any dye-based ink. You want to find an iron gall ink that has a very high ferrogallotannate content... and so far as I know, pharmacist here on FPN is the only one who makes one (his Urkundentinte, which blows all the other commercial iron gall inks out of the water). It's held up very well in my tests. This is an older sunshine test I did (it does not have Urkundentinte on it... it came later) so you can compare how various inks performed. (Also on this test were some pigmented acrylic inks, which are also highly permanent and waterproof, but there are only certain fountain pens that can handle them safely, such as the Rotring ArtPen.)

 

I recommend you conduct your own sunshine tests with the inks you have, then make a decision based on your needs. Putting ink samples out in the sun prematurely ages them so we can see how they might perform in the long run. If an ink holds up to our torture tests, then it's a good candidate for genealogy and journals and such. I take a great interest in this, myself. I made the U.S. Government Standard iron gall ink recipe this year and I'm doing tests on it now to see how it holds up to other iron gall inks.

 

So far as I know, there is only one place that sells ESS ink, and that is the one in the U.K. I ordered a bottle and there weren't any customs hassles. They even take Paypal.

Edited September 8, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[SeeksAdvice]

  On 9/6/2014 at 4:48 PM, Bookman said:

 

Somewhere in the new reformulations trade-offs have to be made, I suppose. Personally, I don't keep any of my writings open to light any longer than it takes to write it in the first place and then read it afterwards. I wonder how well my R&K Salix writings will hold up over the years, even when tucked away in a closed, archived journal. We've all seen old IG writings at the museum, travelling exhibits maybe, things written hundreds of years ago that look as if they might've been written a day earlier. I saw a year-1217 exemplification of Magna Carta that looked like that. I assume that old IG ink had been exposed to indirect sunlight unhesitatingly and repeatedly for centuries, and yet the day I saw it at the Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco, it looked freshly written.

 

I used R&K Salix to label some ammunition boxes, okay, lots of ammunition boxes. The boxes were then placed in what would effectively be a light proof armoured vault waiting on my coming to retrieve them. Given that they were being stored in a poor Louisiana police department's unused evidence vault, I'm guessing that the fluorescent lights were off. They were brought up to my area in an enclosed trailer after about 6 months. Of the 52 boxes, only about a tiny fraction showed no/minimal fading. Most of them had faded to a light grey.

I have seen similar fading with Salix on stuff that has been in a filing cabinet for some time. So, I can't blame contamination, etc. for the fading issues.

[Bookman]

  On 9/8/2014 at 3:56 AM, SeeksAdvice said:

 

I used R&K Salix to label some ammunition boxes, okay, lots of ammunition boxes. The boxes were then placed in what would effectively be a light proof armoured vault waiting on my coming to retrieve them. Given that they were being stored in a poor Louisiana police department's unused evidence vault, I'm guessing that the fluorescent lights were off. They were brought up to my area in an enclosed trailer after about 6 months. Of the 52 boxes, only about a tiny fraction showed no/minimal fading. Most of them had faded to a light grey.

I have seen similar fading with Salix on stuff that has been in a filing cabinet for some time. So, I can't blame contamination, etc. for the fading issues.

 

I'm not sure what I'm doing right, but all the Salix writings I have that I've been able to locate haven't faded much, if they've faded at all. Strange. I have travel-writing Salix from May 2013 that's looks as dark as the day it went on.

[fiberdrunk]

I'm guessing the pH of the paper or box had some part to play in how fast the ink faded.